In-cockpit videos
My 2c is pretty much echoing what more experienced pilots have said. Camera's are a distraction, and you don't need distractions when you are trying to learn in an expensive learning environment. I'd suggest that the ability to go over things on the ground would cancel out what you'd be learning in the air, and it's in the air where you want to be learning at your optimal rate. I kept a diary of my lessons by brain dumping after I got home, and I managed to glean quite a lot just from my recollections. Even after getting my license I don't generally film myself, I take a friend along who does all the filming so I can concentrate on "Aviate, Navigate and Communicate".
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
N2P Yes I teach in a very busy school hence the experience. Please don’t patronise. After 30+ years in the RAF I know how ACMI works. Ask yourself whether the RAF uses telemetry or whether they have in-cockpit filming for basic flying training and do as you say - take a leaf out of their book.
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jonkster -- thanks! Hard to dismiss the suction cup issue as not all suction cups are made equal.
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!
rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!
rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!
jonkster -- thanks! Hard to dismiss the suction cup issue as not all suction cups are made equal.
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!
rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!
rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!
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rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which.
Of course it's possible to carry cameras, and probably have a good flight, I have done it many times. But, at this stage in your anticipated flight training, the risks exceed the benefits for you. Yes, you could come back here, and tell us that you took two GoPros flying, and watched the video over and over later. Then a wise poster here may tell you that without a mentored review, you're not really learning from your mistakes, your just reinforcing them. Mt wife, who is a college professor tells me about the students who pay close attention in class, and those who record what she says, thinking they'll learn more later from the recording - maybe they do, maybe they don't.
Treat your flying lesson with the seriousness that flying requires - learn during the lesson, with your full attention, learn right, and reinforce building good piloting skills. You've had a wealth of very experienced pilot's advice here, and none of them learned to fly with the aid of recording devices - and look, we're all still flying! Indeed, when I learned to fly, the only video recording possible was a Super 8 movie camera, and yes, my pilot buddy and I did take one flying once. After paying for the film to be developed, we only watched it once, that was in 1978, I have no idea what happened to it.
N2P. you've asked for advice, and got advice - not what you expected, but worthwhile. Whether you follow it or not, we'll never know, but experienced pilots here gave you their best advice. Experienced advice is willingly given here, I hope you'll become memorable as a person who is appreciative to receive it.
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9 lives -- please let me be clear here: I greatly appreciate the advice given even if it wasn't what I was expecting. It has allowed me to think of other things that I've initially not thought of. To those that have contributed, thank you! However, please do not confuse my unwillingness to give up audio and video recording with being a difficult student in the cockpit. Recording my flights has zero to do with listening to the flight instructor once the lesson has begun. So far, all I've heard is how this does not work for the instructors in the flight. I'd love to hear how it has worked (or not worked!!) for the students in the flight.
We never really got into discussing putting cameras in the cockpit, much less got to the discussion of reviewing the flight with my instructor, maybe even a few other instructors, to get various people's comments on any mistakes or incidents. Thinking that I'm just going to watch the video by myself and not even ask for instructor input is a silly assumption!
I don't understand why you bring up this example. She clearly doesn't know whether the pay-attention group does better than the record-the-class group, so I don't know what point you were trying to make?
Please consider that I work in a field where unwillingness to follow expert advice or knowing better when shown not to be the case can very well mean an innocent loved one ends up dead. Appeals to authority doesn't work, evidence-based arguments does.
Mt wife, who is a college professor tells me about the students who pay close attention in class, and those who record what she says, thinking they'll learn more later from the recording - maybe they do, maybe they don't.
Please consider that I work in a field where unwillingness to follow expert advice or knowing better when shown not to be the case can very well mean an innocent loved one ends up dead. Appeals to authority doesn't work, evidence-based arguments does.
N2P,
I'm not a power instructor, but I have done a fair bit of glider instructing, most of it well before the GoPro days. I have to say I would not want a student recording his flight on video, for all of the valid reasons mentioned here. This thread has prompted me to raise the topic of in-flight video recording with my club's instructors.
With regard to the video of the Cirrus aborted takeoff, I would suggest the lesson to be learned from that has nothing to do with the pilot's reaction time, which was understandable, given that the oil pressure was only slightly in the yellow - I probably would have continued. The airmanship lesson is that he should have made a call to ATC much sooner, rather than waiting until nearly at the end of the runway. Also, the call is "stopping", not "aborting", at least in all the countries that I fly in.
I'm not a power instructor, but I have done a fair bit of glider instructing, most of it well before the GoPro days. I have to say I would not want a student recording his flight on video, for all of the valid reasons mentioned here. This thread has prompted me to raise the topic of in-flight video recording with my club's instructors.
With regard to the video of the Cirrus aborted takeoff, I would suggest the lesson to be learned from that has nothing to do with the pilot's reaction time, which was understandable, given that the oil pressure was only slightly in the yellow - I probably would have continued. The airmanship lesson is that he should have made a call to ATC much sooner, rather than waiting until nearly at the end of the runway. Also, the call is "stopping", not "aborting", at least in all the countries that I fly in.
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I am newly qualified - so defer to all the more experienced, but anyway.
First few months I asked the instructor to take the occasional pic of me/the countryside so I could show friends and change my work background - I wanted to record everything. Reality is there is zero to be gained from filming the beginning of the course - turning, straight and level etc. Zero. It took me a while to get the flare just right - again, not something you can usefully "fly" on a video.
What could be helpful - stall/spin recovery. You need to take particular actions in quick succession that need to be learned. Less finesse on the inputs like small adjustments to fly straight and level and more bang pitch, bang power and bang climb. Also I think PFLs - again, a succession of actions to learn - pitch for climb etc. I think IF you struggled with these for a couple of weeks you could legitimately ask your instructor to fit a camera.
So my advice is don't waste the mental energy in trying to film hours of boring nonsense BUT when you get to specific points that you struggle with I can certainly see the benefit of 5-10 second videos (longer for PFL) to re-enforce what needs to become muscle memory. And there is nothing wrong with asking for the occasional landscape or you pic - learning to fly is cool and fun and so I can understand why one would want to record it!
First few months I asked the instructor to take the occasional pic of me/the countryside so I could show friends and change my work background - I wanted to record everything. Reality is there is zero to be gained from filming the beginning of the course - turning, straight and level etc. Zero. It took me a while to get the flare just right - again, not something you can usefully "fly" on a video.
What could be helpful - stall/spin recovery. You need to take particular actions in quick succession that need to be learned. Less finesse on the inputs like small adjustments to fly straight and level and more bang pitch, bang power and bang climb. Also I think PFLs - again, a succession of actions to learn - pitch for climb etc. I think IF you struggled with these for a couple of weeks you could legitimately ask your instructor to fit a camera.
So my advice is don't waste the mental energy in trying to film hours of boring nonsense BUT when you get to specific points that you struggle with I can certainly see the benefit of 5-10 second videos (longer for PFL) to re-enforce what needs to become muscle memory. And there is nothing wrong with asking for the occasional landscape or you pic - learning to fly is cool and fun and so I can understand why one would want to record it!
I'm not an instructor and nor do I fly anymore but........a friend of mine recorded his first solo and then showed all and sundry the result. What I did notice was that, while giving running commentary during his flight he gained 500ft on the downwind leg. Perhaps concentrating on flying rather than the commentary this may not have happened. Did he notice the error, he certainly didn't mention it and, to be honest, nor did I as I didn't feel it was right to burst his bubble, after all, he did get back safely
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India Four Two, thanks for your response! Can I ask you under what conditions would it be acceptable for you for a student to record his flights on video? The reasons mentioned here are indeed valid, but the concerns can also be addressed as I've tried to highlight in post #32.
With regard to the Cirrus video, you've just proven my point! By recording his video, he was able to highlight an issue that was important to him (reaction time) and you have highlighted other issues that he may not even have considered (wrong radio call? calling ATC too late?). All of these may very well not have been identified if he did not record video and audio of the incident, but because we have this recording, we can scrutinize his flight and identify areas where he can improve. This is exactly my aim with my exercise!
I could do a "perfect" flight from start to finish and proudly show it off to one of the instructors who would then proceed to tell me how I can tighten up this "perfect" flight! I may have not made a mistake per se, but I'll still end up with being able to review and learn from what I would've thought was an uneventful flight.
AlexJR, thanks for your input! I will admit that there will probably be parts of my video that I will want to show my friends and family. Aviation is a passion and I don't think I should be sorry for wanting to share my passion. However, that is not the main goal for now and yes, 95% of the video will more than likely be duller than watching paint dry. However, that 5% which could be a perfect learning opportunity, that is why I do this. I cannot predict when that event will happen so best to be prepared, at least that's what I think.
Note that the idea for now is for two cameras, one with 50/50 instruments view and out-the-front view, with probably more favor given to instruments, and the other camera pointed at the pilots, so this isn't really for sightseeing or wallpapers but rather more for review and assessment of flight performance.
Another point is that for this to be a "normal" thing for me, one that will be proven to work time and time again so that it just becomes something that's there and not something to pull out of the bag and figure out and fiddle with on the rare occassions that it's needed. If I'm doing this in 1 out of every 10 flights, then I fully agree that it will become a distraction, an annoyance. If I do it as part of my regular flying, then it just becomes normal. At least that's how my reasoning goes.
golfbananajam, was he really giving a running commentary? If you look at some more videos, a lot of pilots talk to themselves during flying. I don't know if this is the norm or if they do it just for the camera but I know I talk to myself (whisper, more like, but still) whenever I go through my morning checks before a list. Aren't flight crews encouraged to verbalize what they're doing both to record the incident and so that both pilots are on the same page in all phases of flight?
I would like to pose an issue to those that do not or have not encouraged video recording while flying:
Suppose you had to do this but obviously you had your concerns as raised above, what parameters should be in place, what rules or policies would you ask to be implemented in order for you to do this?
Would you ask that camera mounting points are secured to the cockpit via a screw or bolt?
Would you ask that a policy be introduced whereby an instructor can terminate a flight if the student is flying for the camera and that his head isn't in the game, but that the instructor can still charge for the full hour?
What would it need for you to consider this a safe and acceptable condition?
With regard to the Cirrus video, you've just proven my point! By recording his video, he was able to highlight an issue that was important to him (reaction time) and you have highlighted other issues that he may not even have considered (wrong radio call? calling ATC too late?). All of these may very well not have been identified if he did not record video and audio of the incident, but because we have this recording, we can scrutinize his flight and identify areas where he can improve. This is exactly my aim with my exercise!
I could do a "perfect" flight from start to finish and proudly show it off to one of the instructors who would then proceed to tell me how I can tighten up this "perfect" flight! I may have not made a mistake per se, but I'll still end up with being able to review and learn from what I would've thought was an uneventful flight.
AlexJR, thanks for your input! I will admit that there will probably be parts of my video that I will want to show my friends and family. Aviation is a passion and I don't think I should be sorry for wanting to share my passion. However, that is not the main goal for now and yes, 95% of the video will more than likely be duller than watching paint dry. However, that 5% which could be a perfect learning opportunity, that is why I do this. I cannot predict when that event will happen so best to be prepared, at least that's what I think.
Note that the idea for now is for two cameras, one with 50/50 instruments view and out-the-front view, with probably more favor given to instruments, and the other camera pointed at the pilots, so this isn't really for sightseeing or wallpapers but rather more for review and assessment of flight performance.
Another point is that for this to be a "normal" thing for me, one that will be proven to work time and time again so that it just becomes something that's there and not something to pull out of the bag and figure out and fiddle with on the rare occassions that it's needed. If I'm doing this in 1 out of every 10 flights, then I fully agree that it will become a distraction, an annoyance. If I do it as part of my regular flying, then it just becomes normal. At least that's how my reasoning goes.
golfbananajam, was he really giving a running commentary? If you look at some more videos, a lot of pilots talk to themselves during flying. I don't know if this is the norm or if they do it just for the camera but I know I talk to myself (whisper, more like, but still) whenever I go through my morning checks before a list. Aren't flight crews encouraged to verbalize what they're doing both to record the incident and so that both pilots are on the same page in all phases of flight?
I would like to pose an issue to those that do not or have not encouraged video recording while flying:
Suppose you had to do this but obviously you had your concerns as raised above, what parameters should be in place, what rules or policies would you ask to be implemented in order for you to do this?
Would you ask that camera mounting points are secured to the cockpit via a screw or bolt?
Would you ask that a policy be introduced whereby an instructor can terminate a flight if the student is flying for the camera and that his head isn't in the game, but that the instructor can still charge for the full hour?
What would it need for you to consider this a safe and acceptable condition?
Fixing an inside-cockpit camers in an LAA Permit aircraft needs approval by an LAA Inspector. The CAA may require a Licensed Engineer to approve.
There's a big difference between doing something illegal on your own, and involving someone whose career would be affected in it.
(I've posted over 100 YT videos, all made before the LAA brought in this rule. It might be easy to prove yours were made recently.)
There's a big difference between doing something illegal on your own, and involving someone whose career would be affected in it.
(I've posted over 100 YT videos, all made before the LAA brought in this rule. It might be easy to prove yours were made recently.)
My main concern is I am not sure it actually would contribute much to the learning environment of an early student. That said I am also not sure it would detract much either, just think it is just won't give that much value . That of course is my opinion and happy to be shown wrong.
Anything that improves a student's progress and contributes to making a better pilot is welcome but from my perspective, generally reducing complication and focussing on basic sight pictures, reducing stress, building control feel and developing judgement are what I like to work on for early students. I am not sure watching videos of the lesson would add that much value here. Like learning to play and perform with a musical instrument - you can enjoy watching and listening but it doesn't really help that much in learning to do it yourself compared to actually doing it!
Despite all of that - talk to your instructor and if they are happy to let you do it, go for it. Why not though do a couple of lessons first and maybe re-consider the camera (and how it could help, where best mounted etc) after you have a better feel for the learning environment?
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I read this thread with interest although I have no particular feelings pro/against using video recordings for learning. But there seems to be a very clear majority view from everybody from newly qualified pilots to very experienced instructors that it is unlikely to add much training value, especially in the very early stages. So why not do as Jonkster says, get the first couple of lessons under your belt and once you have some personal experience, see if and how you still think it would be helpful for you? With the amount of time posting on this thread has doubtless already taken, I bet you could have read most of the Air Law book, which would give you a far better head start before your first lesson!! Good luck with your training- it's a wonderful experience.
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Maoraigh1, who said anything about doing anything illegal?
jonkster, the focus on the instruments is there to record what is happening during flight and to verify whatever is necessary during review. What I meant with "more favor" is that it'll probably end up occupying more of the screen than the outside cockpit view, but what the FOV actually captures remains to be seen. Based on other YouTube videos, there seems to be more than enough vertical FOV to capture the ceiling, windshield, instruments, and sometimes even the floor of the cockpit. I think this will depend on where the camera is actually mounted inside the cockpit though.
Consent - totally agree and would not be an issue if the instructor even wanted his face blurred out or something. This is all about respecting other people's privacy and a give-and-take between student and instructor.
Learning - I do agree with you that it is not 100% sure that it will help or will be of value, but it's easier to delete boring videos than it is to build a time machine!
Instructor - As mentioned, I've already spoken to them and the general rule is that it is allowed but for private use only of which I have zero issues whatsoever.
Thanks for being more open-minded in the discussion here! If you think I've not addressed any of the voiced concerns adequately, I'd love to know about what I've missed.
CEM1, thanks for your input! I have read Air Law on the Trevor Thom book and on Phil Croucher's book! I'm also a good few lessons in on the Book 1 Flying Training material, but decided to stop as it's useless until I actually am doing the lessons, I think. Making my way through other material now and the only real reason I'm active on this topic is because of my upcoming flight. Had I not booked it, I wouldn't even have made this thread!
As to adding value, I fully recognize that it might not give value..... or it just might! I'm just not prepared to lose that potential value.
I found where I read it.... it is the last item for the LAE to check under CAP 1369
Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.
Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
jonkster, the focus on the instruments is there to record what is happening during flight and to verify whatever is necessary during review. What I meant with "more favor" is that it'll probably end up occupying more of the screen than the outside cockpit view, but what the FOV actually captures remains to be seen. Based on other YouTube videos, there seems to be more than enough vertical FOV to capture the ceiling, windshield, instruments, and sometimes even the floor of the cockpit. I think this will depend on where the camera is actually mounted inside the cockpit though.
Consent - totally agree and would not be an issue if the instructor even wanted his face blurred out or something. This is all about respecting other people's privacy and a give-and-take between student and instructor.
Learning - I do agree with you that it is not 100% sure that it will help or will be of value, but it's easier to delete boring videos than it is to build a time machine!
Instructor - As mentioned, I've already spoken to them and the general rule is that it is allowed but for private use only of which I have zero issues whatsoever.
Thanks for being more open-minded in the discussion here! If you think I've not addressed any of the voiced concerns adequately, I'd love to know about what I've missed.
CEM1, thanks for your input! I have read Air Law on the Trevor Thom book and on Phil Croucher's book! I'm also a good few lessons in on the Book 1 Flying Training material, but decided to stop as it's useless until I actually am doing the lessons, I think. Making my way through other material now and the only real reason I'm active on this topic is because of my upcoming flight. Had I not booked it, I wouldn't even have made this thread!
As to adding value, I fully recognize that it might not give value..... or it just might! I'm just not prepared to lose that potential value.
Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.
Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
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I stand by what I said - the first say 20 lessons are all about refinement with power pitch and trim - this is something you need to feel at the time rather than study pre or post. Then you can learn the memory items which I think the video will help with.
But let's get your thoughts after a few filmed lessons to see what your view is? What is your timeline?
But let's get your thoughts after a few filmed lessons to see what your view is? What is your timeline?
I found where I read it.... it is the last item for the LAE to check under CAP 1369
Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.
Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.
Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
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What do you mean by "timeline?
artschool, I'm obviously no expert here, so I can just refer you to what I've found. Do you have a source for the rules that say stuff like iPads and pilot aware is allowed?
artschool, I'm obviously no expert here, so I can just refer you to what I've found. Do you have a source for the rules that say stuff like iPads and pilot aware is allowed?