Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

In-cockpit videos

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

In-cockpit videos

Old 24th Oct 2018, 01:26
  #41 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes indeed, the idea is simple but secure!

Are you referring to this suction cup? Or something different?

Nurse2Pilot is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 01:36
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Sydney
Posts: 429
Received 20 Likes on 6 Posts
I guess it looked similar to that - hard to know if it was the same - I didn't pay it that much attention to be honest.
jonkster is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 04:01
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 370
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My 2c is pretty much echoing what more experienced pilots have said. Camera's are a distraction, and you don't need distractions when you are trying to learn in an expensive learning environment. I'd suggest that the ability to go over things on the ground would cancel out what you'd be learning in the air, and it's in the air where you want to be learning at your optimal rate. I kept a diary of my lessons by brain dumping after I got home, and I managed to glean quite a lot just from my recollections. Even after getting my license I don't generally film myself, I take a friend along who does all the filming so I can concentrate on "Aviate, Navigate and Communicate".

Just my opinion.
flyinkiwi is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 04:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Temporarily Unsure!
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
N2P Yes I teach in a very busy school hence the experience. Please don’t patronise. After 30+ years in the RAF I know how ACMI works. Ask yourself whether the RAF uses telemetry or whether they have in-cockpit filming for basic flying training and do as you say - take a leaf out of their book.
rarelyathome is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 08:40
  #45 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
jonkster -- thanks! Hard to dismiss the suction cup issue as not all suction cups are made equal.
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!

rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!
Nurse2Pilot is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 09:55
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Temporarily Unsure!
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
jonkster -- thanks! Hard to dismiss the suction cup issue as not all suction cups are made equal.
flyinkiwi -- thanks for sharing your thoughts! As mentioned, I have considered how the camera can be a distraction and I think I've shared my solution for it. I also brain dump (although I use a different term!) after learning sessions but having a camera or video/audio recording means I don't have to rely on my short term memory and can rest assured that if I forget something, the recording surely won't!

rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which. If you have a way that I can do ACMI in a civilian trainer aircraft, I'm all ears! I guess you've also missed the varios videos on YouTube taken from inside fighter cockpits? Granted they're for sharing and not for learning, but where's the talk of distraction and danger there? I do apologise for not knowing about your 30+ years in the RAF, but I wonder how you expected me to know that? Is it the same way you know that video recording does not work despite not doing it yourself or dealing with people who have done it and learned from it? I would appreciate it if you'd stop projecting on me. Thanks!
not sure what projecting on you means but I’ll certainly stop. Bye
rarelyathome is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 11:29
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
rarelyathome -- first you accuse me of confirmation bias, then you accuse me of patronising... but please re-read your posts and try to see which one of us is doing which.
N2P, I speak from many decades of advanced instructing and mentoring in dozens of GA types - I'm not new at this. I caution that the perseverance you display in your posts appears to be the "type A" personality, which can make really successful business people. "Type A" makes much less good student pilots. If you were in the cockpit with me, apparently so unwilling to consider experienced advice, we probably would not continue the flight. "Type A" personalities tend to think that they know better when flying, most often they do not. A few of my type A students found themselves suddenly in a very alarming and realistic situation, which I created for them, to bring to their attention why what they had just thought they could do, they should not have attempted.

Of course it's possible to carry cameras, and probably have a good flight, I have done it many times. But, at this stage in your anticipated flight training, the risks exceed the benefits for you. Yes, you could come back here, and tell us that you took two GoPros flying, and watched the video over and over later. Then a wise poster here may tell you that without a mentored review, you're not really learning from your mistakes, your just reinforcing them. Mt wife, who is a college professor tells me about the students who pay close attention in class, and those who record what she says, thinking they'll learn more later from the recording - maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Treat your flying lesson with the seriousness that flying requires - learn during the lesson, with your full attention, learn right, and reinforce building good piloting skills. You've had a wealth of very experienced pilot's advice here, and none of them learned to fly with the aid of recording devices - and look, we're all still flying! Indeed, when I learned to fly, the only video recording possible was a Super 8 movie camera, and yes, my pilot buddy and I did take one flying once. After paying for the film to be developed, we only watched it once, that was in 1978, I have no idea what happened to it.

N2P. you've asked for advice, and got advice - not what you expected, but worthwhile. Whether you follow it or not, we'll never know, but experienced pilots here gave you their best advice. Experienced advice is willingly given here, I hope you'll become memorable as a person who is appreciative to receive it.
9 lives is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 20:32
  #48 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
9 lives -- please let me be clear here: I greatly appreciate the advice given even if it wasn't what I was expecting. It has allowed me to think of other things that I've initially not thought of. To those that have contributed, thank you! However, please do not confuse my unwillingness to give up audio and video recording with being a difficult student in the cockpit. Recording my flights has zero to do with listening to the flight instructor once the lesson has begun. So far, all I've heard is how this does not work for the instructors in the flight. I'd love to hear how it has worked (or not worked!!) for the students in the flight.


Originally Posted by 9 lives
Yes, you could come back here, and tell us that you took two GoPros flying, and watched the video over and over later. Then a wise poster here may tell you that without a mentored review, you're not really learning from your mistakes, your just reinforcing them.
We never really got into discussing putting cameras in the cockpit, much less got to the discussion of reviewing the flight with my instructor, maybe even a few other instructors, to get various people's comments on any mistakes or incidents. Thinking that I'm just going to watch the video by myself and not even ask for instructor input is a silly assumption!

Mt wife, who is a college professor tells me about the students who pay close attention in class, and those who record what she says, thinking they'll learn more later from the recording - maybe they do, maybe they don't.
I don't understand why you bring up this example. She clearly doesn't know whether the pay-attention group does better than the record-the-class group, so I don't know what point you were trying to make?


Please consider that I work in a field where unwillingness to follow expert advice or knowing better when shown not to be the case can very well mean an innocent loved one ends up dead. Appeals to authority doesn't work, evidence-based arguments does.
Nurse2Pilot is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 06:43
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Saigon SGN/VVTS
Posts: 6,625
Received 58 Likes on 42 Posts
N2P,

I'm not a power instructor, but I have done a fair bit of glider instructing, most of it well before the GoPro days. I have to say I would not want a student recording his flight on video, for all of the valid reasons mentioned here. This thread has prompted me to raise the topic of in-flight video recording with my club's instructors.

With regard to the video of the Cirrus aborted takeoff, I would suggest the lesson to be learned from that has nothing to do with the pilot's reaction time, which was understandable, given that the oil pressure was only slightly in the yellow - I probably would have continued. The airmanship lesson is that he should have made a call to ATC much sooner, rather than waiting until nearly at the end of the runway. Also, the call is "stopping", not "aborting", at least in all the countries that I fly in.
India Four Two is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 15:16
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: High Wycombe
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am newly qualified - so defer to all the more experienced, but anyway.

First few months I asked the instructor to take the occasional pic of me/the countryside so I could show friends and change my work background - I wanted to record everything. Reality is there is zero to be gained from filming the beginning of the course - turning, straight and level etc. Zero. It took me a while to get the flare just right - again, not something you can usefully "fly" on a video.

What could be helpful - stall/spin recovery. You need to take particular actions in quick succession that need to be learned. Less finesse on the inputs like small adjustments to fly straight and level and more bang pitch, bang power and bang climb. Also I think PFLs - again, a succession of actions to learn - pitch for climb etc. I think IF you struggled with these for a couple of weeks you could legitimately ask your instructor to fit a camera.

So my advice is don't waste the mental energy in trying to film hours of boring nonsense BUT when you get to specific points that you struggle with I can certainly see the benefit of 5-10 second videos (longer for PFL) to re-enforce what needs to become muscle memory. And there is nothing wrong with asking for the occasional landscape or you pic - learning to fly is cool and fun and so I can understand why one would want to record it!
AlexJR is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 17:02
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 166
Received 28 Likes on 16 Posts
I'm not an instructor and nor do I fly anymore but........a friend of mine recorded his first solo and then showed all and sundry the result. What I did notice was that, while giving running commentary during his flight he gained 500ft on the downwind leg. Perhaps concentrating on flying rather than the commentary this may not have happened. Did he notice the error, he certainly didn't mention it and, to be honest, nor did I as I didn't feel it was right to burst his bubble, after all, he did get back safely
golfbananajam is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 19:12
  #52 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
India Four Two, thanks for your response! Can I ask you under what conditions would it be acceptable for you for a student to record his flights on video? The reasons mentioned here are indeed valid, but the concerns can also be addressed as I've tried to highlight in post #32.

With regard to the Cirrus video, you've just proven my point! By recording his video, he was able to highlight an issue that was important to him (reaction time) and you have highlighted other issues that he may not even have considered (wrong radio call? calling ATC too late?). All of these may very well not have been identified if he did not record video and audio of the incident, but because we have this recording, we can scrutinize his flight and identify areas where he can improve. This is exactly my aim with my exercise!

I could do a "perfect" flight from start to finish and proudly show it off to one of the instructors who would then proceed to tell me how I can tighten up this "perfect" flight! I may have not made a mistake per se, but I'll still end up with being able to review and learn from what I would've thought was an uneventful flight.


AlexJR, thanks for your input! I will admit that there will probably be parts of my video that I will want to show my friends and family. Aviation is a passion and I don't think I should be sorry for wanting to share my passion. However, that is not the main goal for now and yes, 95% of the video will more than likely be duller than watching paint dry. However, that 5% which could be a perfect learning opportunity, that is why I do this. I cannot predict when that event will happen so best to be prepared, at least that's what I think.

Note that the idea for now is for two cameras, one with 50/50 instruments view and out-the-front view, with probably more favor given to instruments, and the other camera pointed at the pilots, so this isn't really for sightseeing or wallpapers but rather more for review and assessment of flight performance.

Another point is that for this to be a "normal" thing for me, one that will be proven to work time and time again so that it just becomes something that's there and not something to pull out of the bag and figure out and fiddle with on the rare occassions that it's needed. If I'm doing this in 1 out of every 10 flights, then I fully agree that it will become a distraction, an annoyance. If I do it as part of my regular flying, then it just becomes normal. At least that's how my reasoning goes.


golfbananajam, was he really giving a running commentary? If you look at some more videos, a lot of pilots talk to themselves during flying. I don't know if this is the norm or if they do it just for the camera but I know I talk to myself (whisper, more like, but still) whenever I go through my morning checks before a list. Aren't flight crews encouraged to verbalize what they're doing both to record the incident and so that both pilots are on the same page in all phases of flight?

I would like to pose an issue to those that do not or have not encouraged video recording while flying:
Suppose you had to do this but obviously you had your concerns as raised above, what parameters should be in place, what rules or policies would you ask to be implemented in order for you to do this?

Would you ask that camera mounting points are secured to the cockpit via a screw or bolt?
Would you ask that a policy be introduced whereby an instructor can terminate a flight if the student is flying for the camera and that his head isn't in the game, but that the instructor can still charge for the full hour?

What would it need for you to consider this a safe and acceptable condition?
Nurse2Pilot is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 19:38
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,775
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Fixing an inside-cockpit camers in an LAA Permit aircraft needs approval by an LAA Inspector. The CAA may require a Licensed Engineer to approve.
There's a big difference between doing something illegal on your own, and involving someone whose career would be affected in it.
(I've posted over 100 YT videos, all made before the LAA brought in this rule. It might be easy to prove yours were made recently.)
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 21:13
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Sydney
Posts: 429
Received 20 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
Note that the idea for now is for two cameras, one with 50/50 instruments view and out-the-front view, with probably more favor given to instruments.
Up to you but I am not sure the focus on instruments is really going to be of much value in the ab-initio phase. I have sometimes resorted to covering instruments with a post-it note when a student noticeably becomes cockpit focussed rather than looking outside and cannot stop themselves looking inside, (this focus can come from people who have done a lot of self taught computer simulated flight prior to starting actual flight training). Looking at attitudes outside is more the priority.


Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
I would like to pose an issue to those that do not or have not encouraged video recording while flying:
Suppose you had to do this but obviously you had your concerns as raised above,
My 2c FWIW

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
what parameters should be in place, what rules or policies would you ask to be implemented in order for you to do this?
A big one - the video should not be published publically without my consent.

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
Would you ask that camera mounting points are secured to the cockpit via a screw or bolt?
Whatever - so long as it was secure and didn't interfere with operations or obstruct visibility. There also may be regulatory obligations in different jurisdictions and if my employer's policy was we had to record lessons, these obligations would have to be complied with otherwise as PIC I could be liable to repurcussions.

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
Would you ask that a policy be introduced whereby an instructor can terminate a flight if the student is flying for the camera and that his head isn't in the game, but that the instructor can still charge for the full hour?
Not sure that is an issue. I am responsible for the student, the lesson and the flight. If I found they kept getting distracted by the camera I would simply switch it off.

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
What would it need for you to consider this a safe and acceptable condition?
I am not that worried about any safety implications if the camera was properly mounted (except when the student was operating solo - I would be wary of allowing it if the student was ab-initio and solo - dependent on the student maybe).

My main concern is I am not sure it actually would contribute much to the learning environment of an early student. That said I am also not sure it would detract much either, just think it is just won't give that much value . That of course is my opinion and happy to be shown wrong.

Anything that improves a student's progress and contributes to making a better pilot is welcome but from my perspective, generally reducing complication and focussing on basic sight pictures, reducing stress, building control feel and developing judgement are what I like to work on for early students. I am not sure watching videos of the lesson would add that much value here. Like learning to play and perform with a musical instrument - you can enjoy watching and listening but it doesn't really help that much in learning to do it yourself compared to actually doing it!

Despite all of that - talk to your instructor and if they are happy to let you do it, go for it. Why not though do a couple of lessons first and maybe re-consider the camera (and how it could help, where best mounted etc) after you have a better feel for the learning environment?
jonkster is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 21:26
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I read this thread with interest although I have no particular feelings pro/against using video recordings for learning. But there seems to be a very clear majority view from everybody from newly qualified pilots to very experienced instructors that it is unlikely to add much training value, especially in the very early stages. So why not do as Jonkster says, get the first couple of lessons under your belt and once you have some personal experience, see if and how you still think it would be helpful for you? With the amount of time posting on this thread has doubtless already taken, I bet you could have read most of the Air Law book, which would give you a far better head start before your first lesson!! Good luck with your training- it's a wonderful experience.
CEM1 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 21:40
  #56 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maoraigh1, who said anything about doing anything illegal?

jonkster, the focus on the instruments is there to record what is happening during flight and to verify whatever is necessary during review. What I meant with "more favor" is that it'll probably end up occupying more of the screen than the outside cockpit view, but what the FOV actually captures remains to be seen. Based on other YouTube videos, there seems to be more than enough vertical FOV to capture the ceiling, windshield, instruments, and sometimes even the floor of the cockpit. I think this will depend on where the camera is actually mounted inside the cockpit though.

Consent - totally agree and would not be an issue if the instructor even wanted his face blurred out or something. This is all about respecting other people's privacy and a give-and-take between student and instructor.

Learning - I do agree with you that it is not 100% sure that it will help or will be of value, but it's easier to delete boring videos than it is to build a time machine!

Instructor - As mentioned, I've already spoken to them and the general rule is that it is allowed but for private use only of which I have zero issues whatsoever.

Thanks for being more open-minded in the discussion here! If you think I've not addressed any of the voiced concerns adequately, I'd love to know about what I've missed.

CEM1, thanks for your input! I have read Air Law on the Trevor Thom book and on Phil Croucher's book! I'm also a good few lessons in on the Book 1 Flying Training material, but decided to stop as it's useless until I actually am doing the lessons, I think. Making my way through other material now and the only real reason I'm active on this topic is because of my upcoming flight. Had I not booked it, I wouldn't even have made this thread!

As to adding value, I fully recognize that it might not give value..... or it just might! I'm just not prepared to lose that potential value.

Originally Posted by artschool
no I am not joking. why would wifi not be used in a light aircraft? we also use it for sky demon and pilot aware.
I found where I read it.... it is the last item for the LAE to check under CAP 1369

Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.


Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
Nurse2Pilot is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2018, 08:35
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: High Wycombe
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I stand by what I said - the first say 20 lessons are all about refinement with power pitch and trim - this is something you need to feel at the time rather than study pre or post. Then you can learn the memory items which I think the video will help with.

But let's get your thoughts after a few filmed lessons to see what your view is? What is your timeline?
AlexJR is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2018, 21:09
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: chester
Posts: 62
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot
I found where I read it.... it is the last item for the LAE to check under CAP 1369

Policy and guidance on mounting cameras on aircraft
15. In order to reduce the risk of electromagnetic interference (EMI) with aircraft systems, cameras that are equipped with wireless interface and activation systems (including WiFi / Bluetooth and similar wireless technologies with potential for transmitting EMI) should be placed in a ‘flight safe mode’ with the wireless functionality disabled; a limitation note to this effect should be recorded by the LAE below for the attention of the pilot/owner.


Does this then mean the people who use WiFi for other devices shouldn't be doing so? I cannot see the how WiFi for iPads or other devices would be different from WiFi for cameras.
that's interesting, but pilot aware definitely relies on wifi to connect to iPads and they aren't prohibited.
artschool is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2018, 22:21
  #59 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What do you mean by "timeline?

artschool, I'm obviously no expert here, so I can just refer you to what I've found. Do you have a source for the rules that say stuff like iPads and pilot aware is allowed?
Nurse2Pilot is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2018, 10:17
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by artschool
that's interesting, but pilot aware definitely relies on wifi to connect to iPads and they aren't prohibited.
They are when using WiFi.
ChickenHouse is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.