Fun with ATC
Fun with ATC
Slowly working my way through my PPL training, I am bemused by the chaotic ATC situation. Yesterday there were at least 3 separate causes for concern in one hour and we also heard another aircraft reporting an incident – I don’t know what happened there.
For example. Rwy 07 and 14 cross each other and both are in constant use. The circuit is right-handed. From 07 it is necessary to start to turn to the right crosswind leg which is more-or-less parallel to 14 as soon as we are over the end of 07, otherwise we are flying over dense housing with zero options in the event of an engine failure and eventually airspace problems. We did a touch and go on 07, were climbing out and had turned to 120 when ATC warn us of a Dash-8 taking-off on 14 and departing straight ahead. I assume they also warned the Dash about us as they cleared it for departure, but I missed that call – the chatter is absolutely constant. So there we are at about 500’ AGL and climbing flat out, watching a Dash 8 below and behind, maybe 500m to our right, beginning to climb on a parallel course. We need to turn right onto the downwind leg across the Dash; we cannot extend the crosswind leg because of more airspace restrictions. I had expected them to climb way faster than our little 172, so was expecting to turn behind and beneath them. But they stayed very low and in the end we turned onto downwind straight over the top of them but with a good vertical separation. Maybe that is how VFR is meant to work? But our eventual action – over or under - seemed very arbitrary as we were getting squeezed between a climbing Dash-8 to the right and closed and busy airspace ahead and to the left. Why would the tower not have waited 1 minute or even less to allow us to cross the end of 14 on our downwind before releasing the Dash?
There were other incidents - eg on the downwind we had an aircraft behind us that we never saw, who believed they were ahead of us – they had a bizarre radio exchange with tower asking them if they 'see the Skyhawk ahead’ and them replying ‘no, we are behind a 172’. Eventually ATC gave-up trying to work out who was who (of course we were both squawking VFR) and turned the following aircraft onto base. That could have been dangerous given that they had little idea where they were relative to us.
And a few minutes later on the same circuit, a Dornier 228 suddenly appeared at exactly the same altitude maybe 200m off our port wing. Really? WTF? Throw in a bunch of large birds that like to hang around in the area, and it all seems pretty hairy to me.
I appreciate that the tower has lots of other stuff happening and I do not envy them their difficult and complex job. But I think it is only a matter of time before we have a nasty incident here. Or is this typical of busy airspace? What are your thoughts?
For example. Rwy 07 and 14 cross each other and both are in constant use. The circuit is right-handed. From 07 it is necessary to start to turn to the right crosswind leg which is more-or-less parallel to 14 as soon as we are over the end of 07, otherwise we are flying over dense housing with zero options in the event of an engine failure and eventually airspace problems. We did a touch and go on 07, were climbing out and had turned to 120 when ATC warn us of a Dash-8 taking-off on 14 and departing straight ahead. I assume they also warned the Dash about us as they cleared it for departure, but I missed that call – the chatter is absolutely constant. So there we are at about 500’ AGL and climbing flat out, watching a Dash 8 below and behind, maybe 500m to our right, beginning to climb on a parallel course. We need to turn right onto the downwind leg across the Dash; we cannot extend the crosswind leg because of more airspace restrictions. I had expected them to climb way faster than our little 172, so was expecting to turn behind and beneath them. But they stayed very low and in the end we turned onto downwind straight over the top of them but with a good vertical separation. Maybe that is how VFR is meant to work? But our eventual action – over or under - seemed very arbitrary as we were getting squeezed between a climbing Dash-8 to the right and closed and busy airspace ahead and to the left. Why would the tower not have waited 1 minute or even less to allow us to cross the end of 14 on our downwind before releasing the Dash?
There were other incidents - eg on the downwind we had an aircraft behind us that we never saw, who believed they were ahead of us – they had a bizarre radio exchange with tower asking them if they 'see the Skyhawk ahead’ and them replying ‘no, we are behind a 172’. Eventually ATC gave-up trying to work out who was who (of course we were both squawking VFR) and turned the following aircraft onto base. That could have been dangerous given that they had little idea where they were relative to us.
And a few minutes later on the same circuit, a Dornier 228 suddenly appeared at exactly the same altitude maybe 200m off our port wing. Really? WTF? Throw in a bunch of large birds that like to hang around in the area, and it all seems pretty hairy to me.
I appreciate that the tower has lots of other stuff happening and I do not envy them their difficult and complex job. But I think it is only a matter of time before we have a nasty incident here. Or is this typical of busy airspace? What are your thoughts?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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I happen to know that HKNW is Nairobi Wilson, but I'm fairly certain most people would need to look it up...
Wilson is by no means typical of a GA training or club airfield, indeed it is quite the oposite and I'm not the least bit surprised at your post. My experience of Wilson was admittedly some time ago but it was chaotic then with a difficult mix of aircraft and usually frantically busy. Specific inbound and outbound VFR lanes/procedures along with being squeezed in between other busy airfields impose further complications and it is all "overseen" by ATC that is somewhat idiosyncratic to say the least.
You have my sympathies but you'll get the hang of it even if you don't get much experience at flying text-book circuits because you're dodging traffic all the time.
You have my sympathies but you'll get the hang of it even if you don't get much experience at flying text-book circuits because you're dodging traffic all the time.
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While I was taxiing out at Wilson, a Secretary bird walked across in front of me! It was a large creature, as I had no problem seeing it over the nose of the Twin Otter.
Different airports and regions of the world have different norms for air traffic interaction. This will in part be the case as ATC becomes very familiar with some frequent user aircraft and operators. They'll get into a pattern, which may seem very casual to the outside observer, but has shown itself to work. Decades back I used to fly a Cessna 310 which was based at Toronto International (CYYZ, for those who live by codes). ATC knew that I was the only pilot who flew that plane, and I was very familiar with operations around that airport. I could ask for, and be granted clearances which were not normally available, and might seem a little casual, but it worked. When I worked at Bremerhaven, Germany (I don't remember the code), the Islanders would come and go commercially very casually, but their operations were extremely established, and it worked fine. When very established operators are receiving the "easy" clearances, it will in part be because they are excellent at accurate position reporting (local familiarity) and unusually good at watching out for traffic themselves. And example of this in many cities, will be traffic reporting aircraft, who know the area like the back of their hand, and can separate themselves well from other aircraft.
Always be alert, but as long as you know that the other aircraft are in communication, have faith in the system.
Different airports and regions of the world have different norms for air traffic interaction. This will in part be the case as ATC becomes very familiar with some frequent user aircraft and operators. They'll get into a pattern, which may seem very casual to the outside observer, but has shown itself to work. Decades back I used to fly a Cessna 310 which was based at Toronto International (CYYZ, for those who live by codes). ATC knew that I was the only pilot who flew that plane, and I was very familiar with operations around that airport. I could ask for, and be granted clearances which were not normally available, and might seem a little casual, but it worked. When I worked at Bremerhaven, Germany (I don't remember the code), the Islanders would come and go commercially very casually, but their operations were extremely established, and it worked fine. When very established operators are receiving the "easy" clearances, it will in part be because they are excellent at accurate position reporting (local familiarity) and unusually good at watching out for traffic themselves. And example of this in many cities, will be traffic reporting aircraft, who know the area like the back of their hand, and can separate themselves well from other aircraft.
Always be alert, but as long as you know that the other aircraft are in communication, have faith in the system.
as long as you know that the other aircraft are in communication
I feel I begin to sound like a broken vinyl record, but never and nowhere should we blindly trust radio comm's, or the lack of them.
[[ regarding mutual familiarity tower operators vs. pilots: some strong stories around at EBAW Antwerp, particularly regarding one RdV
Largely confirming your position ]]
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Wilson is allegedly / at times / has been (not sure which) the busiest airport in Africa. I'm with double barrel on this one - ATC is shocking, aircraft seem to come and go on a whim, the airspace is crowded... training flights in 172s, semi-under-the-rader Dorniers racing back from Mog to reload with Khat, Air Kenya tourist Twotters outbound to Lamu, Police choppers (sometimes taking policemen's families on shopping trips), Kenya Cowboy bush jockeys in Raybans, shorts and rafters running into the circuit on fumes from the ranch in Laikipia ('well the truck with a drum didn't make it up to the farm, but I know this plane, there's always a few kilos in the tank if you waggle the wings on finals'), in a hurry to get to Talisman for a sundowner..... There are some fine training establishments there, but personally I wouldn't want to do my ab initio on that circuit.... Plus the whole damn shebang is at 6,000, so nothing seems to work quite as well as you'd expect.
I have a feeling that it is actually getting worse by the day, or maybe I'm just getting more of the big picture and finding that it's scary!But, its all I know!
Last edited by double_barrel; 15th Oct 2018 at 05:25.
