Bristol Flying Not For Profit

[Glider Steve]

Hi All. I’m just after some wisdom.

I had had a good conversation with the chap at Bristol Flying today. They operate as a not for profit and I was amazed to learn that the Cessna 150 is charged out at £135 ph including instructor vat and landing fees. He explained that this is a ‘metered’ cost from chocks off to chocks on.

Has as anyone had experience of this club and if so can you confirm these low rates?

Im comparing it to microlight lessons which at £165 ph now seem rather expensive!

so now I’m thinking Bristol might be a cheaper option, which would be fantastic as it’s so close to where I live.

As ever, all advice gratefully received.

Cheers

[Jan Olieslagers]

Hm, perhaps not very relevant but I recently paid 120 € for 54 minutes hire of a club ultralight, instructor's fee included, and ample post-flight briefing. Needless to state that was not in the UK ... My point: "expensive" or otherwise is a very relative thing.

[Glider Steve]

Thanks Jan - I guess my question is really whether anyone has experience of this 'metered' type of flying and if they agree that Bristol Flying is well priced in the market......I' don't want to sign up only to get charged £200 because we spent 30 minutes with the prop turning waiting to get up there......

Cheers
Steve

[Maoraigh1]

Metered time will depend on the airfield. The Inverness school charges "Time in Air + 10 minutes" which is the best deal if you sometimes/often have a long wait at a holding point.
"Metered brakes off-on" would be the better deal if there was a short taxi, and waiting at a holding point is unlikely.

[Ebbie 2003]

Thinking my GBP 150 per Hobbs with no landing fees and sneaky extras for my PA28-181 here in Barbados is a bit cheap.

[Pilot DAR]

Ebbie, PM is waiting for you....

[ms08]

I pay £167 per hour all up and including instruction - £117 for the aircraft and £50 for instructor

[Genghis the Engineer]

Surely genuine "not for profit" flying is in syndicates.

Is there a local similar-type syndicate that you can compare costs to?

Chock-to-chock charging, of-course, is pretty common in both syndicates and rental operations.

G

[Nurse2Pilot]

Interesting thread. A local flight school in EGNV is charging £140 for dual and £114 for solo but I don't think that includes landing fees. This is also on a PA-38, not a C150, so does the aircraft have a significant impact on cost? For comarison, the PA-28 was £160/£140 to rent.

[pilotmike]

Originally Posted by Glider Steve

Hi All. I’m just after some wisdom.

I had had a good conversation with the chap at Bristol Flying today. They operate as a not for profit and I was amazed to learn that the Cessna 150 is charged out at £135 ph including instructor vat and landing fees. He explained that this is a ‘metered’ cost from chocks off to chocks on.

Has as anyone had experience of this club and if so can you confirm these low rates?

Im comparing it to microlight lessons which at £165 ph now seem rather expensive!

so now I’m thinking Bristol might be a cheaper option, which would be fantastic as it’s so close to where I live.

As ever, all advice gratefully received.

Cheers

Care needs to be taken to understand exactly what you are paying for, what you are actually getting, and making sure you are comparing like for like. Not everything is always as it seems, especially in aviation.

A friend and I decided to take a trial lesson each at Bristol Airport, myself ATPL, instructor since 1990 but lapsed PPL, my friend ab-initio. So I called Bristol Flying to book 2 trial lessons, being very clear that I was intending to revalidate.

I was told I had to book their air experience flights online. I told them their site was rather confusing because the 60 and 120 minute 2-seat Cessna flights were accompanied by photos of G-BNKD, a 172, the 60 minute Piper Arrow flight for £249 showed a picture of G-BOYH, a Warrior, and the 90 minute Arrow flight for £299 again showed G-BOYH and went on to give details of the Warrior with 160HP engine for that ‘experience’. He acknowledged the site was wrong, saying he’d only recently started there, that he spotted the errors, that he’d told the management, and that they were ‘in the process’ of changing it.

A few days later I called back to book the 2 flights with them, and I wanted to confirm that I would be flying with a qualified instructor given my intentions to revalidate, as an experienced pilot and instructor with over 30 years flying experience, and I was told of course I wouldn’t – surely I should know that on an air experience flight I would be sat next to PPL who would show me how the controls work and would ‘risk-assess’ me to see if I might be allowed to handle the controls.

No amount of reminding him that I was asking to book a LESSON with an instructor made any difference, and I found his manner antagonistic and argumentative, where all I was trying to do was to spend some money with them with a view to seeing if they could provide the training / testing required for me to revalidate. He told me the only way to proceed was to book the air experience online. I thanked him for giving me the very clear answer to my question of whether they were the right club for me to revalidate at, and hung up.

Calling Bristol & Wessex Aeroplane Club, they couldn’t have been more different: pleasant and very helpful. I booked the 2 flights with them, which we took earlier this week, and the flights were just as advertised. Kevin, the instructor was extremely good – obviously highly experienced and relaxed, totally happy for me to do the whole flight without feeling the need to touch the controls once. Very different from paying to sit next to a non-instructor PPL demonstrating their flying abilities for an hour.

Checking the prices, Bristol & Wessex simply charge time aloft plus 0.2hours (allowing 6 minutes for taxy / hold at both ends), and this includes a landing fee and VAT. I believe Bristol Flying charge engine time, but the small print for their tempting headline hourly self-fly hire rates says they are based on 2 hours, NOT the actual cost per single hour. They also charge a £50 per month membership fee, compared to Bristol & Wessex Aeroplane Club’s £120 per year. That is a very significant £480 per year difference, around 4 hours flying! It only takes a month or 2 of not flying due to weather or for other reasons for the baseline hourly rate to add up to being quite a lot more coin.

This is not to put you off; rather it is to share an actual experience (not a lesson remember!), and to recommend that you ask some searching questions about what exactly you’ll be paying for, before making your choice. Neither is this intended to slag off Bristol Flying – though how hard is it REALLY for a FLYING club to get their advertising right with correct pictures of correct aircraft, with words, pictures and prices to match what is actually being offered?

Even today, Bristol Flying STILL have the misleading advertising more than 6 weeks after I brought it to their attention, they confirmed they knew it was misleading and they assured me it was being corrected. It doesn’t seem that they are in any rush to be accurate and straightforward about what exactly they are offering.

Given the excellent experience I had with Bristol & Wessex Aeroplane Club, there is no doubt where I will be spending my money for revalidation and ongoing hire.

[pilotmike]

Originally Posted by Glider Steve

Thanks Jan - I guess my question is really whether anyone has experience of this 'metered' type of flying and if they agree that Bristol Flying is well priced in the market......I' don't want to sign up only to get charged £200 because we spent 30 minutes with the prop turning waiting to get up there......

Cheers
Steve

A very valid point, Steve, and very pertinent at Bristol Airport which, being an International Airport, has quite a bit of commercial traffic with strict separation requirements. This in turn means that holding will often be necessary, sometimes for longer periods. That was exactly my point in my previous post about the difference between the engine time charging, and flight time Plus 0.2.

For both our 2 flights as detailed above, we were held waiting for departure for some time, which was 'free' after the paid for 6 minutes (0.1 hour). Whereas the engine time keeps on ticking up as you hold for departure, as does the cost.

As I said, you need to ask some searching questions to have all the facts before committing to any particular club or school. Make sure that you're comparing like for like. Oh, and did I mention the importance of checking whether the advertising is misleading about which actual type you'll be paying to fly?