After 5 hours...
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there does not seem to be enough rudder authority to counter even a little aileron. I had a vision of screaming-in sideways while shedding airspeed and altitude and plonking it down on the numbers! That may be Sky God level? Or maybe the little Cessna just doesn't do that ?
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If there's some reason to get down quickly the other approach - slow to flaps speed, full flaps, then point the nose down as far as necessary - seems to me to get you down just as fast, without the same worry about whether I'm risking a spin from deliberate low slow out of balance flight. Not pretty, though, if anyone's watching.
GTW,
Speeding up works, but then you arrive over the threshold with a lot more energy, which translates into a longer ground run. For example, if you are approaching at 65 mph and then accelerate to 75 mph, the energy has increased by one- third!
Pilot DAR raises a valid point - the rudder pedal force can become quite high and it is easy to think you have reached the limit. I've always found Cessnas (152, 172, 177 and 182) easy to side slip. I'm lucky that the 182 that I currently fly has the old 40º "barn door" flap setting, so slips are rarely required.
One tip from me is don't do slips while carrying non-pilot passengers - you can scare them - ask me how I know!
Speeding up works, but then you arrive over the threshold with a lot more energy, which translates into a longer ground run. For example, if you are approaching at 65 mph and then accelerate to 75 mph, the energy has increased by one- third!
Pilot DAR raises a valid point - the rudder pedal force can become quite high and it is easy to think you have reached the limit. I've always found Cessnas (152, 172, 177 and 182) easy to side slip. I'm lucky that the 182 that I currently fly has the old 40º "barn door" flap setting, so slips are rarely required.
One tip from me is don't do slips while carrying non-pilot passengers - you can scare them - ask me how I know!
Another good point. The C172 has only one static port which is on the port side, so I guess that leads to ASI anomalies when slipping. I had not thought of that or had it pointed-out to me. I assume that presenting the port side to the direction of travel increases static pressure and so reduces the apparent airspeed while the other way does the reverse?
Last edited by double_barrel; 26th Oct 2018 at 08:52.
Hi all. An update triggered by a new round of frustration!
I am approaching 20 hours. Almost everything seems to be coming together really well. I now seem to have plenty of time to do everything I need to. I am hearing all the radio calls and replying appropriately. All that stuff that I memorized but could not recall under pressure is now coming naturally. I feel relaxed and comfortable on the controls and my speed and altitude is pretty much bang on throughout the circuit
BUT!!! I cannot land the !@#$%^& thing! My landings are consistently terrible and I don't know why or what to do about it. The approach is perfect. I am reliably crossing the threshold a hair over 60Kn with 20 degrees of flap, I feel completely in control, and then it goes to rat****. I usually kind of hang there maybe 20' above the ground, loosing airspeed and wondering what to do next! My instructor tells me to 'flare' much more aggressively, it's true I am not pulling back, but I think it's more about timing the flare than actually doing it! If I do it too high or aggressively we drop down like a ton of bricks (or maybe I just fear we will?), if I do it too late we fly into the ground. I cannot get that right. I have watched so many freaking youtube videos on how to land a 172!, but I am not getting it!
Any thoughts from your collective wisdom gratefully received!
I am approaching 20 hours. Almost everything seems to be coming together really well. I now seem to have plenty of time to do everything I need to. I am hearing all the radio calls and replying appropriately. All that stuff that I memorized but could not recall under pressure is now coming naturally. I feel relaxed and comfortable on the controls and my speed and altitude is pretty much bang on throughout the circuit
BUT!!! I cannot land the !@#$%^& thing! My landings are consistently terrible and I don't know why or what to do about it. The approach is perfect. I am reliably crossing the threshold a hair over 60Kn with 20 degrees of flap, I feel completely in control, and then it goes to rat****. I usually kind of hang there maybe 20' above the ground, loosing airspeed and wondering what to do next! My instructor tells me to 'flare' much more aggressively, it's true I am not pulling back, but I think it's more about timing the flare than actually doing it! If I do it too high or aggressively we drop down like a ton of bricks (or maybe I just fear we will?), if I do it too late we fly into the ground. I cannot get that right. I have watched so many freaking youtube videos on how to land a 172!, but I am not getting it!
Any thoughts from your collective wisdom gratefully received!
Last edited by double_barrel; 14th Nov 2018 at 04:36.
Try it with full flap?
Wait for the ground rush?
Look towards the end of the runway?
But seriously, if you have had the same instructor every time, do some circuits with a different instructor (it does'nt mean that your current instructor isn't any good). Sometimes a different perspective is needed. Or just the correct words that make it all click in your mind.
Wait for the ground rush?
Look towards the end of the runway?
But seriously, if you have had the same instructor every time, do some circuits with a different instructor (it does'nt mean that your current instructor isn't any good). Sometimes a different perspective is needed. Or just the correct words that make it all click in your mind.
db,
Remember that judging the flare, is a learned skill, just like the other skills you have learned in your first 20 hours. Once you’ve learned how to do it consistently, you don’t even think about it. I remember when I first started teaching in gliders, I had trouble breaking down the skills and judgment necessary.
Good advice from scubawasp. Use full flap, then you can reduce your approach speed. There are hardly ever circumstances where you need to use less than full flap for landing. Even with 20° of flap, 60 kts sounds fast to me. Check the manual for the flaps-down stall speed (Vso) of the particular 172 you are flying and then multiply by 1.3 to get a full-flap approach speed.
I’ve seen Vso of 43 kts on the Internet, which gives an approach speed of 56 kts. Bear in mind that Vso in the manual is for operations at gross weight. Vso at typical training weights will be slightly slower. Your calculated speed may need to be adjusted in gusty conditions. You should discuss this with your instructor.
As an aside, I’ve noticed when being checked out in various places, that training organizations or even individual instructors often add a few knots to the approach speed “for safety”. I think this is a bad practice and often leads to new pilots having difficulties landing and can contribute to “wheel barrow” landings and occasionally nose-wheel failure.
As far as judging the flare, try getting your instructor to fly you down the runway at flare height, to get the “sight picture”. Once you start your flare, deliberately transfer your gaze from your aiming point to the end of the runway. If you notice that you’ve left the flare too late, you’ll need a more aggressive but still smooth pull on the yoke. If you have flared too high, a smooth and relatively small increase in RPM will help reduce your rate of descent.
Remember that judging the flare, is a learned skill, just like the other skills you have learned in your first 20 hours. Once you’ve learned how to do it consistently, you don’t even think about it. I remember when I first started teaching in gliders, I had trouble breaking down the skills and judgment necessary.
Good advice from scubawasp. Use full flap, then you can reduce your approach speed. There are hardly ever circumstances where you need to use less than full flap for landing. Even with 20° of flap, 60 kts sounds fast to me. Check the manual for the flaps-down stall speed (Vso) of the particular 172 you are flying and then multiply by 1.3 to get a full-flap approach speed.
I’ve seen Vso of 43 kts on the Internet, which gives an approach speed of 56 kts. Bear in mind that Vso in the manual is for operations at gross weight. Vso at typical training weights will be slightly slower. Your calculated speed may need to be adjusted in gusty conditions. You should discuss this with your instructor.
As an aside, I’ve noticed when being checked out in various places, that training organizations or even individual instructors often add a few knots to the approach speed “for safety”. I think this is a bad practice and often leads to new pilots having difficulties landing and can contribute to “wheel barrow” landings and occasionally nose-wheel failure.
As far as judging the flare, try getting your instructor to fly you down the runway at flare height, to get the “sight picture”. Once you start your flare, deliberately transfer your gaze from your aiming point to the end of the runway. If you notice that you’ve left the flare too late, you’ll need a more aggressive but still smooth pull on the yoke. If you have flared too high, a smooth and relatively small increase in RPM will help reduce your rate of descent.
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I had exactly the same issue, every week for like 2 months - exercise 12/13 (i.e. circuit bashing). I'd always flare too early so the plane would bump down - it is always later than you think.
My instructor was very patient but ultimately it is something you learn through practice. The best advice was perhaps to plan to fly down the runway - no need to execute a short field landing during the first 20 feet. If you plan to fly down the runway and slowly descend then you get a feel for it. Then next time you'll find yourself eating-up less of the runway etc. Worst case, you go around - no harm done!
My instructor was very patient but ultimately it is something you learn through practice. The best advice was perhaps to plan to fly down the runway - no need to execute a short field landing during the first 20 feet. If you plan to fly down the runway and slowly descend then you get a feel for it. Then next time you'll find yourself eating-up less of the runway etc. Worst case, you go around - no harm done!
Thanks all
That sounds like good advice. In fact I was coming to that conclusion from the other comments above. I think I am focussing to much about arriving on the numbers with the engine at idle, I will try to pick an aiming point a couple of 100' down and not worry too much about getting it down in a hurry. There is a ton of runway to play with - 4,800'
The best advice was perhaps to plan to fly down the runway - no need to execute a short field landing during the first 20 feet. If you plan to fly down the runway and slowly descend then you get a feel for it. Then next time you'll find yourself eating-up less of the runway etc. Worst case, you go around - no harm done!
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Have you tried many glide approaches? You aim for the half way point and then when you think you can make it, cut the power. Generally end up between the half way point and the threshold.
Great way to hone the pitch-speed-altitude relationship and still comes in handy when far too high on approach...
Great way to hone the pitch-speed-altitude relationship and still comes in handy when far too high on approach...
My instructor, many years ago, noticed that I was trying to land it and failing in much the same way you describe. He got me to pull the power completely off as I started the flare and then to try and keep the plane flying. First attempt was a bit rough but I soon got the hang of it. the secret really being to try and NOT land it, try to keep it flying. If you climb again you're either too quick or have too much power set but don't fight it or you'll end up with a PIO
Whatever you do, don't worry too much, we've all been there
Whatever you do, don't worry too much, we've all been there
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Many years ago I also had trouble with landing and whilst my instructor was away doing his ATPL exams (this is in the old CAA days) I had a part-time instructor who noticed this and decided to fly the entire length of the runway in flare attitude just about the runway. This "fixed" the picture in my mind and what you know? I solo'd the week after. PS. We had 2,500 metres of runway available. Maybe worth considering.
Some people learn nothing by watching someone else landing. (e.g. me.)
What sorted my landings was being passed to an excellent instructor, who figured oou what I was doing wrong, but, instead of telling me what I was doing wrong, gave me instructions on doing it right.
What sorted my landings was being passed to an excellent instructor, who figured oou what I was doing wrong, but, instead of telling me what I was doing wrong, gave me instructions on doing it right.
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Another vote for learning to land by not landing. After a frustrating and spine-jarring session, my (superb) instructor in Zimbabwe, (who went on the be the youngest 747 skipper in the world) got me flying the length of the runway with just enough power to maintain 5 or 10 feet altitude, a few times; then brought me round and told me to chop the power. Lo and behold, a smooth landing.
Thanks again all. Several people talk about chopping or adjusting the power during the process. I almost always have the power at idle early in the process, usually as I cross the threshold, sometimes even before that. I think that puts me under unnecessary pressure to put it down now. I will try delaying that final power chop, and flying down the runway for a few 100 feet to change my mentality from land now to land eventually! I hope that will allow me to change my perspective, switch focus to the middle distance and land later as you guys all suggest.
That's me too! I have to do it myself!
Flying this afternoon! Will report back!
Some people learn nothing by watching someone else landing. (e.g. me.)
What sorted my landings was being passed to an excellent instructor, who figured oou what I was doing wrong, but, instead of telling me what I was doing wrong, gave me instructions on doing it right.
What sorted my landings was being passed to an excellent instructor, who figured oou what I was doing wrong, but, instead of telling me what I was doing wrong, gave me instructions on doing it right.
That's me too! I have to do it myself!
Flying this afternoon! Will report back!
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Far too novice to say whether this is correct or not, but I am always at idle once "I know I can make it" which is generally at or just before the threshold (or over the trees just before the runway!).
I used to fly gliders from a very grassy strip, and could tell when the wheel was about to contact, as we could discern individual blades of grass rushing past, level with the seat. Any higher and the grass just looked like a green blur. For Gliders on the ground you are only 8 inches agl. but for the C172s you are nearer 36 inches agl. Which requires some adaptation.
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Hey, double barrel, sounds to me like it would be useful for you to spend a WEEKDAY at a gliding club....are you anywhere near London Gliding Club? or the midlands? And learn to land a glider. .....there is no alternative to landing a glider.....it won't take off again, so the procedure is simple. And can be translated into a nice controlled touchdown. Furthermore no distractions like radio, other traffic, going around, whatever. You would then discover that landing is very easy if there is no alternative...! First, the approach, at the recommended speed. Then the gentle roundout, in stages, so that when you are about to tickle the grass, you are in level flight. Keeping the wings level, just above touchdown. No drama. NO RADIO, NO ATC, no bother.