Stalling in Landing Configuration...?
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as long as we held 75knots / -700ft/m, there was no way the C172 was ever going to stall.
Are you being serious? Of course the thing isn't going to stall if you're just sitting there simulating an approach
. I don't know who I find more ridiculous; you for doing such a thing or your instructor for watching you and not asking, "what the hell are you doing?"It's stalling in the approach CONFIGURATION i.e. with the gear, prop pitch and flaps set up as if you're landing........and then you stall the aircraft in that CONFIGURATION, just like you'd stall any other time. To properly simulate the configuration, you leave some power on and then just fly level or slightly nose up to avoid being there all day (you can pretend to be stretching the approach), let it stall and recover. You don't let it descend at 700 feet per minute or guess what doesn't happen.
You can call it 'stalling with flap' if you like because you're not (normally) going to be altering the gear or prop pitch in a 172 but it's still in the approach configuration and is a term so often used I find it very difficult to believe you've never heard of it before.
Yes, a spade is called a spade.
Over the years I've seen stall defined by...
- Full back stick and high rate of descent
- Pitch break
- Incipient spin with no warning
- Pitch break with wing drop
- Roll inverted (that was somewhat unacceptable and we did have to do something about that).
- Increasing amplitude wing rock
All of those I'm happy to have defined as "the stall", the levels of acceptability did vary somewhat. It just happens that the C172 in most configuration / CG combinations does the first.
Which, incidentally is one of the reasons I rate the C172 as one of the worst training aeroplanes readily available - a training aeroplane should teach rather more respect for the aircraft, and particularly the low speed range than the 172 does. You may recall FAA, EASA and CAA half a dozen years ago evangelising about how schools should NOT be teaching powering out of a stall without pitch inputs. That was, in my opinion, significantly because they were teaching in one of two types (the tapered wing PA28s being the other) which are so benign you can get away with that.
G
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This can happen, don’t get complacenent.
I was attemting to land at Ashcroft many years ag and did a low level flight over the runway to have a look. In practice I was flying slower and slower, although I didn’t stall, i realised I was not far off.
Can happen to anyone, be prepared
I was attemting to land at Ashcroft many years ag and did a low level flight over the runway to have a look. In practice I was flying slower and slower, although I didn’t stall, i realised I was not far off.
Can happen to anyone, be prepared
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
scfi As I said before this is an important exercise but approach speed is 1.3xStall which changes with load and flap setting. Not some number plucked out of the air. I think 75knts is higher than the best climb speed. So to fast. But for this exercise it is not about speed it's about stalling in the landing configuration. 30 of flap 14 to 1600 rpm and trying to fly level with speed bleeding off. The point is this will be almost straight and level flight, looks normal not some nose high configuration and when it stalls she will suddenly drop a wing. Another config that can bit is in a sideslip adding full power some Cessnas will roll on their back so fast difficult to catch always return to balanced flight before adding power. The other one not practised very often is in a nose high full power climb chopping the power the nose hast to be lowered very quickly or it will stall.
So the point is visual clues do not always warn you and speed bleeds of very quickly with the extra drag of flaps. It happens most in the final turn when the nose is not dropped a little for extra speed and the up going wing stalls.
I remember an accident at Shoreham a student pilot in the circiut was distracted by other traffic, as in landing config speed decayed quickly and he spun in, so an important exercise.
So the point is visual clues do not always warn you and speed bleeds of very quickly with the extra drag of flaps. It happens most in the final turn when the nose is not dropped a little for extra speed and the up going wing stalls.
I remember an accident at Shoreham a student pilot in the circiut was distracted by other traffic, as in landing config speed decayed quickly and he spun in, so an important exercise.
I remember an accident at Shoreham a student pilot in the circiut was distracted by other traffic, as in landing config speed decayed quickly and he spun in, so an important exercise.
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/cess...b-19-july-2006
I'd argue that whilst flying the *correct* approach speed is important in both types, they have markedly different aLSS and stall characteristics.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 15th Apr 2018 at 18:06.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Genghis it was back around 73 I nearly did the same thing myself in an Aerobat doing solo circuits had 40 of flap on and distracted it was only the sloppy controls that caused me to go to full power.
I did some testing in the same C150 variant myself after Southend. We showed a pull force to stall with the trimmer fully nose-down, in the full flap / full power combination in the order of half a pound.
G
G
Moderator
30 of flap 14 to 1600 rpm and trying to fly level
If a strut braced Cessna is dropping a wing, or otherwise not stalling wings level, it's worth reporting this to the maintainer. It is likely that the wing cams are not properly set. In addition to adjusting the angle of incidence of each wing, the adjustment of the cams also has a slight, though perceptible effect to sweep a wing forward or aft. It could be the case that one wing is swept slightly forward, and the other aft, which will affect handling at low speed.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All because I had told him about torque effects on a P51 I had been flying in America.
During my course at Oxford Air Training school in the depths of history we did the same exercise in PA28's. They were far more benign, but the exercise was thoroughly drummed home, stalling in a turn in the landing configuration can be evil if the recovery is mis-handled.
One of the witnesses to this https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/soca...-december-2003 told me that it looked like a torque roll and certainly later models of the aircraft have had serious modifications to minimise the torque effect from a sharp increase of power.
For the OP, if this was new to you I'd be asking why I wasn't taught about it during my PPL course. Its' probably not part of the PPL sylabus, but it should be, many aircraft will seriously bite in landing configuration.
SND
Not quite its intended purpose, but there's a paper here where a team of researchers stalled 14 different aeroplane types - including the C172 in both cruise and landing configurations and flew a range of different recoveries.
https://www.aerosociety.com/Assets/D...urnal/3965.pdf
G
https://www.aerosociety.com/Assets/D...urnal/3965.pdf
G
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thought so. What triggered me is that the instructor apparently asked to "perform a stall in the landing configuration" instead of "an approach to stall in the landing configuration".
That distinction is important. When you're in the landing configuration that's usually because you're landing (duh), and thus happen to be close to the ground (duh). So you need to recognise the early signs of a stall and act upon it immediately. You can't let the stall develop, because you don't have the height to recover.
So every time I've done this exercise, the exercise briefing always included "recovery on the first sign of the stall". Which were:
- Stall warner
- Sloppy controls
- Buffet
- ASI at the lower end of the white band
Recovery is standard: pitch down sufficient to break the stall, full power, establish climb, clean up the aircraft and climb away (go around). But do NOT sink any further: The whole exercise should be done without height loss.
That distinction is important. When you're in the landing configuration that's usually because you're landing (duh), and thus happen to be close to the ground (duh). So you need to recognise the early signs of a stall and act upon it immediately. You can't let the stall develop, because you don't have the height to recover.
So every time I've done this exercise, the exercise briefing always included "recovery on the first sign of the stall". Which were:
- Stall warner
- Sloppy controls
- Buffet
- ASI at the lower end of the white band
Recovery is standard: pitch down sufficient to break the stall, full power, establish climb, clean up the aircraft and climb away (go around). But do NOT sink any further: The whole exercise should be done without height loss.
Plenty of us have performed, or taught, stalls in the landing configuration.
Just because the most common exercise with students is "recovery from the first symptom of the stall" doesn't mean that one can't, or shouldn't, actually stall it sometimes.
G
Just because the most common exercise with students is "recovery from the first symptom of the stall" doesn't mean that one can't, or shouldn't, actually stall it sometimes.
G
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you stall a small Cessna with landing flap and some power, especially from a right hand turn, you WILL roll off to the left, probably quicker than you think!
This is not a miss rigging, and I have seen this on many individual aircraft.
It is a great shame that some instructors only teach up to the approach to the stall.
Stalls in themeselves are not dangerous, I like to show students what happens when you DONT recover straight away!
This is not a miss rigging, and I have seen this on many individual aircraft.
It is a great shame that some instructors only teach up to the approach to the stall.
Stalls in themeselves are not dangerous, I like to show students what happens when you DONT recover straight away!
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This day and age unfortunately anything outside the syllabus of your training organisation and your exposing yourself.
If your syllabus gives you the option and its been approved by the powers that be then there is no problem.
If the syllabus tells you its only incipient you should take it too then that's what you have to do.
Outside a formal course structure fill your boots.
My FIC had all the stalls in it until stall as exercises that I had to take control and recover from the RHS while the FII put the aircraft into them. But it was not a pattering exercise it was pure recovery handling and I wasn't expected to teach them to a PPL. And it was documented in the FIC syllabus.
If your syllabus gives you the option and its been approved by the powers that be then there is no problem.
If the syllabus tells you its only incipient you should take it too then that's what you have to do.
Outside a formal course structure fill your boots.
My FIC had all the stalls in it until stall as exercises that I had to take control and recover from the RHS while the FII put the aircraft into them. But it was not a pattering exercise it was pure recovery handling and I wasn't expected to teach them to a PPL. And it was documented in the FIC syllabus.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One tiny thing about stalling in the landing configuration though is that quite a few aircraft have lower G loading limits with flaps down (typically only 2G). If you stall in the landing configuration, get into a wingdip and then mess up the initial recovery, you may end up getting pretty near, or even over that limit. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying it's something to consider when you do this exercise.