IMC/IR(R).. going on to CBIR.
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The first document is the recently updated "PBN Manual". There is a huge amount of information in there. My advice would be to look at the PBN Learning Objectives (LOs) in Appendix 2 first. These LOs are set out in AMC to EASA Part-FCL (Amendment 4, 08/02/2018). Each of the LOs listed in the PBN Manual Appendix 2 is given a page number reference in the main PBN Manual. The rest of the information is more detailed and excellent so worth a read. IR holders should also read CAA Information Notice IN-2017/034 as it contains the information needed for adding PBN to your rating by the declaration at Appendix 1 which needs to be done by 25 August 2018 if you want to continue flying PBN ATS routes and procedures.
On the broader topic of instrument flying again PPL/IR provide an excellent text called "European Instrument Flying Qualifications", again free of charge to download but worth joining anyway. In the main this text is related to IMC/IR(R), EIR and CB-IR (although it is termed CBM IR). I am not connected to PPL/IR other than being a member, I am an independent IRI who teaches IMC/IR(R) and CB-IR preparation.
Unfortunately, I cannot post the URLs as I am new to PPRUNE (well returning after 20 years!) and haven't posted the requisite 10 posts before being allowed to post URLs, just Google the titles and you'll find them.
Last edited by AllanA; 1st Apr 2018 at 17:04.
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Thank You for the above. I saw the document last night, need to give it a thorough read.
Would anyone happen to know of good suitable schools in and around London/South East who offer good quality instruction for the IR(R)?
I phoned around a few places and discussed the IR(R) and CB-IR which most didnt have a clue about. I am happy to travel also if need be.
Thanks
Scoobster
Would anyone happen to know of good suitable schools in and around London/South East who offer good quality instruction for the IR(R)?
I phoned around a few places and discussed the IR(R) and CB-IR which most didnt have a clue about. I am happy to travel also if need be.
Thanks
Scoobster
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Scoobster
Try asking schools if they offer the "IMC Rating" as most do, but are unaware of the new name. In my experience, when contacting places regarding the IR(R) most are quick to respond with "No, we don't do instrument ratings"
These may be a bit far from London, but there's a good little school (which few people know about!) in Bournemouth who teach the IR(R). It is true that very few places teach the CB-IR, though Airways at Exeter do and have a very good reputation.
Try asking schools if they offer the "IMC Rating" as most do, but are unaware of the new name. In my experience, when contacting places regarding the IR(R) most are quick to respond with "No, we don't do instrument ratings"
These may be a bit far from London, but there's a good little school (which few people know about!) in Bournemouth who teach the IR(R). It is true that very few places teach the CB-IR, though Airways at Exeter do and have a very good reputation.
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JumboJet1999 is correct it seems that people get the names muddled up. Strictly speaking (with pendant mode enable), the IMC is a rating which can only be added to a UK licence under the UK ANO and IR(R) is the name EASA gave the rating in Part-FCL and so when added to an EASA PPL (even one issued by the CAA under Part-FCL) the rating is called IR(R) and when added to a UK Lifetime Private Pilot Licence (the old pre-JAR poo brown licence) it is called an IMC rating.
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Scoobster
Try asking schools if they offer the "IMC Rating" as most do, but are unaware of the new name. In my experience, when contacting places regarding the IR(R) most are quick to respond with "No, we don't do instrument ratings"
These may be a bit far from London, but there's a good little school (which few people know about!) in Bournemouth who teach the IR(R). It is true that very few places teach the CB-IR, though Airways at Exeter do and have a very good reputation.
Try asking schools if they offer the "IMC Rating" as most do, but are unaware of the new name. In my experience, when contacting places regarding the IR(R) most are quick to respond with "No, we don't do instrument ratings"
These may be a bit far from London, but there's a good little school (which few people know about!) in Bournemouth who teach the IR(R). It is true that very few places teach the CB-IR, though Airways at Exeter do and have a very good reputation.
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I know that Southend Flying Club, Booker Aviation (Wycombe Airpark / high wycombe) and Stapleford offer the CB-IR courses.
I also know that White Waltham (WLAC), Alouette (Biggin), Surrey & Kent (Biggin), EFG (Biggin), Redhill Aviation Center (Redhill), amongst many others offer the IR(r) rating.
If that helps at all?
I also know that White Waltham (WLAC), Alouette (Biggin), Surrey & Kent (Biggin), EFG (Biggin), Redhill Aviation Center (Redhill), amongst many others offer the IR(r) rating.
If that helps at all?
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I know that Southend Flying Club, Booker Aviation (Wycombe Airpark / high wycombe) and Stapleford offer the CB-IR courses.
I also know that White Waltham (WLAC), Alouette (Biggin), Surrey & Kent (Biggin), EFG (Biggin), Redhill Aviation Center (Redhill), amongst many others offer the IR(r) rating.
If that helps at all?
I also know that White Waltham (WLAC), Alouette (Biggin), Surrey & Kent (Biggin), EFG (Biggin), Redhill Aviation Center (Redhill), amongst many others offer the IR(r) rating.
If that helps at all?
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I can recommend a few instructors at Southend Flying Club if you need (via PM as I don't want to offend anyone) or at S&K / Alouette / Redhill if for the IR(r).
I have been told by a few good friends that they enjoyed the CBIR at Bookers, but found the examiner to be a little "career orientated" (meaning that all three had to pay for another test because the examiner thought they were flying slightly out of balance when under full G1000 failure and flying on the standby instruments which didn't have slip / ball indicator...) I was later told by someone who used to instruct there that this particular examiner would purposefully change the rudder trim during the test to get them to re-sit. Now I don't know how true this is, or who that examiner was, or wether he still examines there, but it sounds a little cheeky to me!
Anyway - I am sure you will find somewhere perfect! :-) Keep us posted how your studying and training goes!
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Scoobster, I have done my IR(R) at Stapleford (can PM you details of my instructor) and started my CB-IR there, but had to pause for family reasons. Completed two years later at Aero Poznań in Poland and currently sporting "IR-SP-SE" in my licence.
In my particular case I only needed 10 ATO hours at the Aero Poznań: all 15 hours of my IR(R) training, 3 hours of Stapleford-ATO CB-IR, and 12 hours of my solo IFR flying under IR(R) qualification, were credited towards the 40-hour CB-IR minimum requirement.
I, too, have come across some instructors/examiners claiming that airlines look less favourably on those who achieved their IR via the CB Modular route, which I think is b.s. and an attempt to protect the business/extract more $$$. Most airlines will look for a first-time IR(A) skills test pass, and the test standards for that are exactly the same, whichever course you choose to complete.
In my particular case I only needed 10 ATO hours at the Aero Poznań: all 15 hours of my IR(R) training, 3 hours of Stapleford-ATO CB-IR, and 12 hours of my solo IFR flying under IR(R) qualification, were credited towards the 40-hour CB-IR minimum requirement.
I, too, have come across some instructors/examiners claiming that airlines look less favourably on those who achieved their IR via the CB Modular route, which I think is b.s. and an attempt to protect the business/extract more $$$. Most airlines will look for a first-time IR(A) skills test pass, and the test standards for that are exactly the same, whichever course you choose to complete.
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There are a thousand different routes to a modular frozen ATPL:
The most expensive is to do a CPL in a Multi then a full MEIR course.
The cheaper is IR(R) - MEP (course only) - CBIR (multi) - CPL.
There’s no getting away from the fact that you have to pay to fly a plane and build hours. So it’s always cheaper to get the IR first, and take the CPL at 200 hours. Combined with hour building, an IR(R) costs about £1000 for FI and Examiner etc. Building Instrument PIC time is then free and the CBIR requires 10 hours of multi engine time.
You can get an IR for £6,000. I’m surprised anyone still does the full course.
The most expensive is to do a CPL in a Multi then a full MEIR course.
The cheaper is IR(R) - MEP (course only) - CBIR (multi) - CPL.
There’s no getting away from the fact that you have to pay to fly a plane and build hours. So it’s always cheaper to get the IR first, and take the CPL at 200 hours. Combined with hour building, an IR(R) costs about £1000 for FI and Examiner etc. Building Instrument PIC time is then free and the CBIR requires 10 hours of multi engine time.
You can get an IR for £6,000. I’m surprised anyone still does the full course.
Been offine for a bit, bumping this up.. I did a calculaton of P1 hours and I mostly did hours buildng by renting aircraft (as and when affordable at weekends) and going for the usual bimble to Belgium, Le Touqet,CAEN Sherburn in Elmet - (Alone and in VMC but not quite a sunny day.. learned a hell of a lot on that single fight)..
I also did a VP and a CSU differences traning on a complex aircraft. With all that I am about 63 hrs P1. Not a lot but there you are. My dual time is a lot more.
The plan before I thought about IR(R)..was do to MEP at 70 hours P1 which I am just shy of..
However I am now thinking of doing IR(R) which will take me to say 80 hours P1 followed by MEP rating.
I think the IR(R) will probably give me more value than the MEP at this stage and I can get it done over the summer ready for when the weather craps out around November and put it to use afterwards..
Would this seem sensible/cost effective compared to the CPL ME/IR route..?
I know Stapleford are in the consultation phase for a RNAV approach implementaton but this is a while away yet..
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I’m right at the end of my IR(R) training. My instructor/mentor is a one man band instructor.. ex airline for 35 years and thousands of hours on light aircraft. He is a SUPERB instructor.. focused and diligent. He has also taught me lots of other things that will be needed for when I do my CBIR as the IRR is a good way of getting oneself in the sh*t.
He’s also taught me foul wx flying, mountain flying and farm strip flying.. over the years his instruction has kept my family and I safe.
If you PM me I’d be happy to share his details. He instructs either on your own plane or rented.
He’s also taught me foul wx flying, mountain flying and farm strip flying.. over the years his instruction has kept my family and I safe.
If you PM me I’d be happy to share his details. He instructs either on your own plane or rented.
Definitely get the IRR first and build some IFR hours. Do the MEP course but don't take the test - if you do the MEIR course after that you'll have 21 hours to get the hang of things. If you really want an MEP rating, get it last. But it's really not necessary if you are planning to fly for an airline. Plan to have all that done by 185 hours, then you can do a nice easy 15 hours CPL training in a single.
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Definitely get the IRR first and build some IFR hours. Do the MEP course but don't take the test - if you do the MEIR course after that you'll have 21 hours to get the hang of things. If you really want an MEP rating, get it last. But it's really not necessary if you are planning to fly for an airline. Plan to have all that done by 185 hours, then you can do a nice easy 15 hours CPL training in a single.
Is this not MEP then? Or is it Multi Engine IR that is required? because everything so far has been single and will be up to CBIR.
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Definitely get the IRR first and build some IFR hours. Do the MEP course but don't take the test - if you do the MEIR course after that you'll have 21 hours to get the hang of things. If you really want an MEP rating, get it last. But it's really not necessary if you are planning to fly for an airline. Plan to have all that done by 185 hours, then you can do a nice easy 15 hours CPL training in a single.
I might be getting into a muddle but I would do the following IR(R) this summer. Followed by IFR time building UK Airspace.
Follow this by the CBIR - I presume your reference to the ME IR refers to do the Competency IR on a Multi Engine Airplane? Cost prohibitive? Would it not be better to do it on a Single then add the MEP?
Follow the CBIR by the CPL on reduced hours.
I should add my TT is sitting at 167 hours at the moment.. dont think that makes a difference..?
Have I got that right?
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I did the CBIR with Booker Aviation last month and rate them highly - very accommodating.
I am, however, finding the process of dealing with the CAA to be horrific and, in many ways, harder than the test - that's the subject of a whole other post. Had I known how difficult and expensive that aspect of it would have been, and how they seem to go out of their way to be unhelpful, I might not have bothered with the rating in the first place. Red tape challenge my @£$&.
There are various different routes to the CBIR and you should make sure that your ATO is fully aware of the requirements for your specific route and that they help you to prepare accordingly.
I am, however, finding the process of dealing with the CAA to be horrific and, in many ways, harder than the test - that's the subject of a whole other post. Had I known how difficult and expensive that aspect of it would have been, and how they seem to go out of their way to be unhelpful, I might not have bothered with the rating in the first place. Red tape challenge my @£$&.
There are various different routes to the CBIR and you should make sure that your ATO is fully aware of the requirements for your specific route and that they help you to prepare accordingly.
Scoobster,
99% of people think they need an MEP rating, and 99% of flight schools will tell them that as well, for obvious reasons. The (P) in MEP means piston - and most airlines use jets or turboprops.
The natural assumption is that you need an MEP to get an MEIR, but in fact the regulations state that you need to have completed the *training* for an MEP.
As for the MEIR - there are a multitude of ways to get it. You are right that a SEIR to MEIR conversion requires fewer hours, but that requires taking an extra full IR test, paying another full IR fee extra rental fees. Add to that - unless you're gods gift to aviation you'll find it hard to pass an MEIR test in minimums (which basically equates to one training flight in the aircraft and two in the SIM!)
At 167 hours you've definitely missed the boat on getting everything done in minimums - Am I right in thinking that you have 104 hours dual? That seems like an awful lot..
99% of people think they need an MEP rating, and 99% of flight schools will tell them that as well, for obvious reasons. The (P) in MEP means piston - and most airlines use jets or turboprops.
The natural assumption is that you need an MEP to get an MEIR, but in fact the regulations state that you need to have completed the *training* for an MEP.
As for the MEIR - there are a multitude of ways to get it. You are right that a SEIR to MEIR conversion requires fewer hours, but that requires taking an extra full IR test, paying another full IR fee extra rental fees. Add to that - unless you're gods gift to aviation you'll find it hard to pass an MEIR test in minimums (which basically equates to one training flight in the aircraft and two in the SIM!)
At 167 hours you've definitely missed the boat on getting everything done in minimums - Am I right in thinking that you have 104 hours dual? That seems like an awful lot..
