IMC/IR(R).. going on to CBIR.
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IMC/IR(R).. going on to CBIR.
Hello
I have been thinking of gaining an IMC Rating as I am tired of having to wait for weather improvements for VFR flights.
I know the IMC will sharpen up my experience and offer the chance to shoot ILS approaches at nearby fields or even get close to home (sadly home doesn't have ILS). UK Airspace only.
The long term plan would be to go on and get a full IR..but I have been looking at the CBIR..and that those holding an IR(R) may be able to get hours credits towards CBIR.. a max of 30 I think.
Just wondered if this route is a bit long winded and if the CBIR has the same value as the normal IR(A), advantages etc..? Does it matter if you have an IR vs a CBIR?.. I mean they both allow the same thing...
Ta.
I have been thinking of gaining an IMC Rating as I am tired of having to wait for weather improvements for VFR flights.
I know the IMC will sharpen up my experience and offer the chance to shoot ILS approaches at nearby fields or even get close to home (sadly home doesn't have ILS). UK Airspace only.
The long term plan would be to go on and get a full IR..but I have been looking at the CBIR..and that those holding an IR(R) may be able to get hours credits towards CBIR.. a max of 30 I think.
Just wondered if this route is a bit long winded and if the CBIR has the same value as the normal IR(A), advantages etc..? Does it matter if you have an IR vs a CBIR?.. I mean they both allow the same thing...
Ta.
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The term CB-IR is a term used to describe the training route towards an EASA IR(A) and not a qualification itself. The qualification is the same EASA IR(A).
There is a difference between an IR(A) gained via the competence based route and the integrated route and that is it does not permit the exercising of the privileges in a high powered aircraft (HPA) because the Learning Objectives (LOs) are not included in the CB-IR Theoretical Knowledge (TK) course and exams.
It would be the same if you trained for IR in a single engined aircraft you cannot exercise priviledges in a multi-engined aircraft but the underlying IR(A) is still the same EASA IR.
That said though there is nothing stopping a pilot completing their ATPL exams and flight training using the CB-IR training route and being able to exercise the IR(A) privileges in an HPA.
There is a difference between an IR(A) gained via the competence based route and the integrated route and that is it does not permit the exercising of the privileges in a high powered aircraft (HPA) because the Learning Objectives (LOs) are not included in the CB-IR Theoretical Knowledge (TK) course and exams.
It would be the same if you trained for IR in a single engined aircraft you cannot exercise priviledges in a multi-engined aircraft but the underlying IR(A) is still the same EASA IR.
That said though there is nothing stopping a pilot completing their ATPL exams and flight training using the CB-IR training route and being able to exercise the IR(A) privileges in an HPA.
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This has been done before but there’s no difference in the CBIR and IR - they are just two different routes to the same qualification.
Do the IMCR. You won’t regret it. Just don’t expect miracles - there will still be days you can’t fly due to low freezing level. But it definitely makes those marginal VFR days possible as you have the option to pull up into IMC.
Do the IMCR. You won’t regret it. Just don’t expect miracles - there will still be days you can’t fly due to low freezing level. But it definitely makes those marginal VFR days possible as you have the option to pull up into IMC.
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I hold an IR(R)/IMC, and am now going for the CB-IR. A couple of points.
- The IR(R)/IMC is only valid in UK airspace, and only up to class D. No "big" airfields, no airways.
- You can carry forward 15 hours of IMC training towards the CB-IR. The rest needs to be done at an ATO, specifically for CB-IR training.
- The theory requirements for a CB-IR, although less than for the IR, are significantly more than the IMC/IR(R). Expect several hundreds of hours of self-study, and at least 10% of this needs to be done in a classroom. Realistically this comes down to half a day classroom-based revision per subject, and you've got seven subjects to get through.
- The flying requirements are significantly higher too. Not only is the navigation accuracy requirement a lot stricter, you also need to do intercepts, holds and a bunch of other stuff.
- As an in-between step you can consider the EIR. The EIR theory requirements are the same as the CB-IR, and the EIR gives you airways privileges. Together with the IMC for approaches and departures, this gives you almost the same privileges as the CB-IR. And any training towards the EIR will count towards the CB-IR as well.
I highly recommend doing the IMC first. As said, 15 hours of this counts towards the CB-IR anyway, and it gives you a good feel for what IFR flying is about. It also gives you considerable skills that you can use as a "get out of jail for free" card when flying VFR. And if you plan things properly, you can use the IMC to go touring in the UK. But if you want to perform serious touring, including mainland Europe, go for the EIR and eventually the CB-IR.
- The IR(R)/IMC is only valid in UK airspace, and only up to class D. No "big" airfields, no airways.
- You can carry forward 15 hours of IMC training towards the CB-IR. The rest needs to be done at an ATO, specifically for CB-IR training.
- The theory requirements for a CB-IR, although less than for the IR, are significantly more than the IMC/IR(R). Expect several hundreds of hours of self-study, and at least 10% of this needs to be done in a classroom. Realistically this comes down to half a day classroom-based revision per subject, and you've got seven subjects to get through.
- The flying requirements are significantly higher too. Not only is the navigation accuracy requirement a lot stricter, you also need to do intercepts, holds and a bunch of other stuff.
- As an in-between step you can consider the EIR. The EIR theory requirements are the same as the CB-IR, and the EIR gives you airways privileges. Together with the IMC for approaches and departures, this gives you almost the same privileges as the CB-IR. And any training towards the EIR will count towards the CB-IR as well.
I highly recommend doing the IMC first. As said, 15 hours of this counts towards the CB-IR anyway, and it gives you a good feel for what IFR flying is about. It also gives you considerable skills that you can use as a "get out of jail for free" card when flying VFR. And if you plan things properly, you can use the IMC to go touring in the UK. But if you want to perform serious touring, including mainland Europe, go for the EIR and eventually the CB-IR.
and only up to class D.
An instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes) entitles the holder of the licence to act as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane flying under the Instrument Flight Rules except—
(a) in Class A airspace
(a) in Class A airspace
No "big" airfields
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Thank You for this. The reason I am asking the question is because I am currently doing ATPL Theory and working on whether to go the full IR(A) route or IR(R) and then CBIR. Cost will be one factor but not the be all and end all. I also know tht you can get exemptions for the hours acquired during IR(R).
My understanding is that CBIR can be used in any class aispace except for Heathrow (Class A).
I also understand it gives you the same privileges as a full IR. I need to read the ANO and CAP 804 but thats what I know for now and hence fact finding.
My understanding is that CBIR can be used in any class aispace except for Heathrow (Class A).
I also understand it gives you the same privileges as a full IR. I need to read the ANO and CAP 804 but thats what I know for now and hence fact finding.
Last edited by Scoobster; 31st Mar 2018 at 12:58.
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I also understand it gives you the same privileges as a full IR. I need to read the ANO and CAP 804 but thats what I know for now and hence fact finding.
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Please explain!
the holder of the IR(Restricted) must not fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane flying in Class A, B or C airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the instrument flight rules
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Sure - but I think Backpacker believes there are airports which are inaccessible to IR(R) holders. He's repeated the point more than once.
I am just pointing out that this is not true.
I am just pointing out that this is not true.
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Even Heathrow is in Class D airspace.
Why is bit beyond me, because self navigating in class G airspace is in my opinion much harder than flying under IFR in airways. You have to plan your route very thoroughly, can't always get on top, have to watch airways base altitudes, minimum safety altitudes, skirt around zones you are unlikely to be granted an IFR transit at particular altitudes (due to airways above), keep changing LARS frequency and kindly ask for a service from each one on your route, giving your details several times on route etc... It really is quite hard when you are in solid IMC.
Whilst flying IFR in airways, life is much easier, you get handed over between controllers, given GPS / VOR waypoints and altitudes to follow, get a guarantee of a service being provided, and although you should always verify clearances, you are unlikely to need to manage MSA or routings.
Anyway - CB means "Competency Based". CB-IR is the name of the COURSE and not the RATING. The rating is the IR(A) which is the same if you sit your IR(A) course, or if you sit your CB-IR course.
If you sit the CBIR written exams rather than the ATPL exams, your licence will be annotated with CBIR, stating that you are restricted to non HPA (high performance aircraft) due to the lack of exams. Otherwise you will be issued with an identical IR(A) with no annotations.
I hope this helps.
There are a thousand different routes to a modular frozen ATPL:
The most expensive is to do a CPL in a Multi then a full MEIR course.
The cheaper is IR(R) - MEP (course only) - CBIR (multi) - CPL.
There’s no getting away from the fact that you have to pay to fly a plane and build hours. So it’s always cheaper to get the IR first, and take the CPL at 200 hours. Combined with hour building, an IR(R) costs about £1000 for FI and Examiner etc. Building Instrument PIC time is then free and the CBIR requires 10 hours of multi engine time.
You can get an IR for £6,000. I’m surprised anyone still does the full course.
The most expensive is to do a CPL in a Multi then a full MEIR course.
The cheaper is IR(R) - MEP (course only) - CBIR (multi) - CPL.
There’s no getting away from the fact that you have to pay to fly a plane and build hours. So it’s always cheaper to get the IR first, and take the CPL at 200 hours. Combined with hour building, an IR(R) costs about £1000 for FI and Examiner etc. Building Instrument PIC time is then free and the CBIR requires 10 hours of multi engine time.
You can get an IR for £6,000. I’m surprised anyone still does the full course.
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This is all great gen thank you. Its something I have been thinking about for a while now. The closest airport with an ILS and all the NAVAIDs is Southend but there course IR (R) is a bit steep..
Anyone had experience of a good school to do the rating in the south east somewhere?
Anyone had experience of a good school to do the rating in the south east somewhere?
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I agree completely with rudestuff, with a bit of thought and planning the CB-IR is an excellent route to take to CPL/MEIR.
One extra piece of advice make sure that your training includes a significant PBN element and not just the traditional navigational aids so that your IR includes the PBN annotation.
One extra piece of advice make sure that your training includes a significant PBN element and not just the traditional navigational aids so that your IR includes the PBN annotation.
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I agree completely with rudestuff, with a bit of thought and planning the CB-IR is an excellent route to take to CPL/MEIR.
One extra piece of advice make sure that your training includes a significant PBN element and not just the traditional navigational aids so that your IR includes the PBN annotation.
One extra piece of advice make sure that your training includes a significant PBN element and not just the traditional navigational aids so that your IR includes the PBN annotation.
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However, when I tried to convince one chap I know self-funding his way to achieving his fATPL to get the IR(R) during his hour building followed by the CB-IR, he immediately dismissed my advice because "It's not the proper way and the airlines don't like it" (?!) apparently a 'commercial instructor' told him this. . . I don't know if this story was true or just his excuse for being too stubborn to even consider what I suggested - as usual - because I have less flying experience than him so heck, what do I know!
But it seems daft that airlines would disapprove of the course considering at the end of the day it IS the same full IR qualification, and the course has only been around for a few years anyway.
So if an instructor really did say this, call me cynical but could there perhaps be a trend of commercial flight schools discouraging the CB-IR route to students, as it means more savings for the students doing their IR(R) first in cheaper aircraft at their flying club, thus less ££££ squeezed out of them unnecessarily from commercial schools?
(The other thing which has always baffled me is students who spend a couple grand extra to do their CPL in a twin because "it looks better on your CV"
but that's a subject for another day)
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PBN is Performance Based Navigation. Essentially it means you forget the traditional navaid stuff (NDB, VOR, ILS) but use some sort of Area Navigation (RNAV) method instead. For the majority of us, this means GPS.
There are various ways of doing this accurately, which basically comes down to RNAV or RNP, with the number following that abbreviation indicating the required accuracy. The more accuracy required, the more equipment required. And in all cases, you need a database with the routes, approaches and whatnot, connected to some sort of electronic display (FMS or similar), and sometimes a coupled autopilot.
That, at least, is the 1-minute summary of a 207-page presentation I was sent, and am now working my way through.
Knowledge of PBN becomes mandatory for all IR-rated pilots in the near future, so existing IR-holders will need to do a brush-up course + exam shortly. Those currently under training are supposed to have the PBN element integrated in their RNAV course + exam.
(Unfortunately in NL the authorities are of the opinion that PBN is not required for EIR so no EIR RNAV+PBN course + exams are available. Even though the theory requirements for EIR and CB-IR are the same, so the EIR exams are used by CB-IR students, like me, who do need PBN. A big stink that AOPA NL is now trying to sort out.)
There are various ways of doing this accurately, which basically comes down to RNAV or RNP, with the number following that abbreviation indicating the required accuracy. The more accuracy required, the more equipment required. And in all cases, you need a database with the routes, approaches and whatnot, connected to some sort of electronic display (FMS or similar), and sometimes a coupled autopilot.
That, at least, is the 1-minute summary of a 207-page presentation I was sent, and am now working my way through.
Knowledge of PBN becomes mandatory for all IR-rated pilots in the near future, so existing IR-holders will need to do a brush-up course + exam shortly. Those currently under training are supposed to have the PBN element integrated in their RNAV course + exam.
(Unfortunately in NL the authorities are of the opinion that PBN is not required for EIR so no EIR RNAV+PBN course + exams are available. Even though the theory requirements for EIR and CB-IR are the same, so the EIR exams are used by CB-IR students, like me, who do need PBN. A big stink that AOPA NL is now trying to sort out.)