Biggin Hill Airport To Cut Light Aircraft Activity- Cuts ALL training
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Watch others follow suit as I bet that AOPA and all the other organisations in which we place our faith will be totally powerless to stop this.
AOPA, APPG for GA, GAIN, GAAC - all hot air with no substance.
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I think there's a slight bit of confusion concerning just which tenants have been given notice. It's the three flying training operators.
I'm not up to date with how many light a/c are still based at Biggin but from what I read none of those have been served notice.
So, whilst sad for those who will lose out, I don't see this as an attempt to remove all lighter GA residents.
I'm not up to date with how many light a/c are still based at Biggin but from what I read none of those have been served notice.
So, whilst sad for those who will lose out, I don't see this as an attempt to remove all lighter GA residents.
I think there's a slight bit of confusion concerning just which tenants have been given notice. It's the three flying training operators.
I'm not up to date with how many light a/c are still based at Biggin but from what I read none of those have been served notice.
So, whilst sad for those who will lose out, I don't see this as an attempt to remove all lighter GA residents.
I'm not up to date with how many light a/c are still based at Biggin but from what I read none of those have been served notice.
So, whilst sad for those who will lose out, I don't see this as an attempt to remove all lighter GA residents.
Must do some research to see what wartime RLGs there were near Biggin; obviously none operated by Biggin as it wasn't an FTS.
Gravesend would be ideal as an RLG; bit further north maybe Hornchurch or even Fairlop, but these were all fighter stations too.
Biggin traffic sometimes operated over the Isle of Sheppey when I did Farnborough East; used to annoy Manston Radar (moaned at me about it once; screaming NW wind and their excuse was it got in the way of their IAPs on runway 11!) but there are a couple of strips there that might be suitable (Eastchurch and a.n. other)
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The Airport also said that this was a difficult decision for them to take given the longstanding nature of some of the training schools, but that they are no longer able to mix a high volume of light aviation with growing business aviation whilst maintaining high levels of customer service and all importantly, flight safety.
With all due respect, Gloucester Airport (which I think should be called Gloster in honour of the local planemakers) is not hemmed in by Class D airspace north and south and Class A airspace less than 2000ft above the aerodrome, neither is it at one end of a 'Mig Alley' between the CTR/CTAs of two major airports.
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I think there's a slight bit of confusion concerning just which tenants have been given notice. It's the three flying training operators.
I'm not up to date with how many light a/c are still based at Biggin but from what I read none of those have been served notice.
So, whilst sad for those who will lose out, I don't see this as an attempt to remove all lighter GA residents.
I'm not up to date with how many light a/c are still based at Biggin but from what I read none of those have been served notice.
So, whilst sad for those who will lose out, I don't see this as an attempt to remove all lighter GA residents.
I heard rumours of complaints of the level of proficiency from some light GA pilots (both private and schools) causing unnecessary stress to controllers at Biggin, now I don't know, but I would have thought that removing the local training facilities will only make it harder for based light GA to get the training / currency checks that they need.
White Waltham offers an instructor or someone who knows the circuits well to sit with you over a cup of tea, help you understand what is expected, and offers to sit in with you whilst you fly the different circuits to ensure that you are proficient (completely free of charge - unless you require serious remedial training).
is not hemmed in by Class D airspace north and south and Class A airspace less than 2000ft above the aerodrome, neither is it at one end of a 'Mig Alley' between the CTR/CTAs of two major airports.
Sorry - I'll stop moaning now - I've had my fix!
Biggin Hill is not a charitable trust dedicated to promoting GA, it is a business that seeks to maximise its assets and also appease disgruntled locals. At the same time its landlord does not get any brownie points by 'helping' GA and wants a quiet life from the local 'electorate'. Result; GA/training will always loose out because they have no corporate clout, and no business clout to fight the situation. It is so sad that this proud bastion of fighting for freedom and protecting its country when in peril, has descended into the realms of being a 'profit centre' rather than its traditional home of aviation. Biggin has had a huge input over the years and seen its engineers and pilots making a real contribution to all levels of aviation all over the world. We are hopeless in this country at protecting such places that have nurtured the skills that 'oil the wheels', and the Oaks from Acorns scenario cuts no dice when 'Money' prevails.
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As nice as it may be to have a convenient airport from which to fly, and possibly train, it is a costly luxury. If an airport can operate and sustain itself, while keeping user fees low, how nice! But the reality is that airplanes use a lot of costly space for their operations, and GA pilots are generally not eager to pay the costs in proportion to the use of space and services they need.
I fly over golf courses embedded in the city, on really expensive property, and again, lots of space for low density usage. But, from what my golfing buddies tell me, enough people will pay immense sums to use that special purpose property. I hardly see most GA pilot/owners happy to pay tens of thousands annually to be a member, and use the airport facilities, but there seem to be enough golfers to sustain this, and then a hundred a round on top of that!
A local to Toronto flying club is nationally known for being the only Canadian flying club to own it's airport, and it's a beauty. There are fees, and they are reasonable. Most other Toronto area airports have either closed, are forecast to close, or have welcomed in more commercial operations, which squeezes GA into less free and economical operations.
Unless you own the property, you're at the mercy of the person who does - you have to hope that they like aviation more than making money!
I fly over golf courses embedded in the city, on really expensive property, and again, lots of space for low density usage. But, from what my golfing buddies tell me, enough people will pay immense sums to use that special purpose property. I hardly see most GA pilot/owners happy to pay tens of thousands annually to be a member, and use the airport facilities, but there seem to be enough golfers to sustain this, and then a hundred a round on top of that!
A local to Toronto flying club is nationally known for being the only Canadian flying club to own it's airport, and it's a beauty. There are fees, and they are reasonable. Most other Toronto area airports have either closed, are forecast to close, or have welcomed in more commercial operations, which squeezes GA into less free and economical operations.
Unless you own the property, you're at the mercy of the person who does - you have to hope that they like aviation more than making money!
Well said Pilot DAR.
The same applies to village shops and pubs in the UK. Very low support for what is an expensive business to run. Nice for a few drinks at weekends but unsupported most of the time because supermarkets sell at a much lower price.
However when the facility closes down everyone complains.
GA is not a charity and if you own land the size of an airfield in the UK it is worth several millions as a housing site.
The other problem is circuit bashing annoys the neighbours.
In the case of Biggin I am sure corporate aviation income far exceeds that of flying training.
The same applies to village shops and pubs in the UK. Very low support for what is an expensive business to run. Nice for a few drinks at weekends but unsupported most of the time because supermarkets sell at a much lower price.
However when the facility closes down everyone complains.
GA is not a charity and if you own land the size of an airfield in the UK it is worth several millions as a housing site.
The other problem is circuit bashing annoys the neighbours.
In the case of Biggin I am sure corporate aviation income far exceeds that of flying training.
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Pilot DAR has hit upon a point that many in the GA community are unaware of, that is the costs and burdens of running an airfield. I was ignorant of it myself as a pilot until I actually started working at airports and seen for myself first-hand the challenges facing especially smaller airfields where income is minimal and costs are spiralling out of control due to aging infrastructure and increasing regulatory pressures from Europe.
Firstly, unlike other countries, we do not enjoy state subsidy of airfields, due to the traditionally anti-aviation attitude of the UK Govt. So airfields have to make their own income through charges.
Secondly, airfields have many things they are obliged to provide due to regulatory pressure - RFFS & ATC/FISO, with the associated staff & Firefighting/Tels equipment and maintenance obligations, Navaids, AGL etc. - note of which comes cheap. This all has to be paid for through customers.
Thirdly, most airfields date from WW2, with buildings still in use from that era - ATC Towers, Hangars, ancillary buildings etc. - all of which due to age are requiring increasing levels of maintenance and repair, with an associated increasing cost. Replacements are far too costly to consider. I have first-hand experience of this on a day-to-day basis. Cabling on airfields also dates from WW2 in many cases, causing issues with equipment. Runways, Taxiways and Aprons also require maintenance due to wear and tear, generally an expensive business.
As all these costs have to be met through customer charges, that means landing & parking fees, approach charges, hangarage etc. None of which are popular with us. But without that the airfield simply doesn't run. Smaller airports are stuck in the rut where costs are high but they cannot increase charges for the GA community too much as it will drive away people. It's a difficult business.
Bizjets are something of a cash cow as they tend to be operated by businesses and used by weatlthy individuals who will generally speaking willingly pay the fees asked by airfields. In contrast us SEP-drivers, many of us on an average income with kids to feed and a mortgage to pay, already are under pressure at £130+/hr for a hobby so additional charges on top of that make us baulk as we can't justify it, so we won't pay.
That said, I can't see the logic in Biggin's decision, which is saddening and maddening at the same time. Unless they feel that the light GA is constraining Bizjet capacity, its not justified IMO.
Firstly, unlike other countries, we do not enjoy state subsidy of airfields, due to the traditionally anti-aviation attitude of the UK Govt. So airfields have to make their own income through charges.
Secondly, airfields have many things they are obliged to provide due to regulatory pressure - RFFS & ATC/FISO, with the associated staff & Firefighting/Tels equipment and maintenance obligations, Navaids, AGL etc. - note of which comes cheap. This all has to be paid for through customers.
Thirdly, most airfields date from WW2, with buildings still in use from that era - ATC Towers, Hangars, ancillary buildings etc. - all of which due to age are requiring increasing levels of maintenance and repair, with an associated increasing cost. Replacements are far too costly to consider. I have first-hand experience of this on a day-to-day basis. Cabling on airfields also dates from WW2 in many cases, causing issues with equipment. Runways, Taxiways and Aprons also require maintenance due to wear and tear, generally an expensive business.
As all these costs have to be met through customer charges, that means landing & parking fees, approach charges, hangarage etc. None of which are popular with us. But without that the airfield simply doesn't run. Smaller airports are stuck in the rut where costs are high but they cannot increase charges for the GA community too much as it will drive away people. It's a difficult business.
Bizjets are something of a cash cow as they tend to be operated by businesses and used by weatlthy individuals who will generally speaking willingly pay the fees asked by airfields. In contrast us SEP-drivers, many of us on an average income with kids to feed and a mortgage to pay, already are under pressure at £130+/hr for a hobby so additional charges on top of that make us baulk as we can't justify it, so we won't pay.
That said, I can't see the logic in Biggin's decision, which is saddening and maddening at the same time. Unless they feel that the light GA is constraining Bizjet capacity, its not justified IMO.
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As nice as it may be to have a convenient airport from which to fly, and possibly train, it is a costly luxury. If an airport can operate and sustain itself, while keeping user fees low, how nice! But the reality is that airplanes use a lot of costly space for their operations, and GA pilots are generally not eager to pay the costs in proportion to the use of space and services they need.
I fly over golf courses embedded in the city, on really expensive property, and again, lots of space for low density usage. But, from what my golfing buddies tell me, enough people will pay immense sums to use that special purpose property. I hardly see most GA pilot/owners happy to pay tens of thousands annually to be a member, and use the airport facilities, but there seem to be enough golfers to sustain this, and then a hundred a round on top of that!
I fly over golf courses embedded in the city, on really expensive property, and again, lots of space for low density usage. But, from what my golfing buddies tell me, enough people will pay immense sums to use that special purpose property. I hardly see most GA pilot/owners happy to pay tens of thousands annually to be a member, and use the airport facilities, but there seem to be enough golfers to sustain this, and then a hundred a round on top of that!
Food for thought!
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Biggin Hill is not a charitable trust dedicated to promoting GA, it is a business that seeks to maximise its assets and also appease disgruntled locals. At the same time its landlord does not get any brownie points by 'helping' GA and wants a quiet life from the local 'electorate'. Result; GA/training will always loose out because they have no corporate clout, and no business clout to fight the situation. It is so sad that this proud bastion of fighting for freedom and protecting its country when in peril, has descended into the realms of being a 'profit centre' rather than its traditional home of aviation. Biggin has had a huge input over the years and seen its engineers and pilots making a real contribution to all levels of aviation all over the world. We are hopeless in this country at protecting such places that have nurtured the skills that 'oil the wheels', and the Oaks from Acorns scenario cuts no dice when 'Money' prevails.
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I'm sure many prospective airline pilots will be extremely happy with Will's revelation regarding training:
Managing director Will Curtis said: "We are really sad about having to do this. Flight schools are part of the airfield's long tradition, but we have to put safety first."
He added: "Very few commercial pilots come from flight schools at Biggin Hill; they are generally trained in specialist courses funded by airlines."
He added: "Very few commercial pilots come from flight schools at Biggin Hill; they are generally trained in specialist courses funded by airlines."
If Will is incapable of managing his airfield such that fairly minimal light GA traffic can fit in with fairly minimal bizjets, perhaps he should consider a career he is more suited for as he's clearly inept at aviation.
I don't know the exact charging structure at Biggin, but it is usual for home based aircraft to not be charged for circuits. So if the circuit is full of 3 or 4 GA types all doing Touch and Goes, then that makes about 40 movements per hour (almost as many as Heathrow.), and the airfield will not be making one penny. Remember that for each circuit there will be at least two 'interactions' with ATC, so they will be extremely busy, and hardly have time to draw breath.
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I don't know the exact charging structure at Biggin, but it is usual for home based aircraft to not be charged for circuits. So if the circuit is full of 3 or 4 GA types all doing Touch and Goes, then that makes about 40 movements per hour (almost as many as Heathrow.), and the airfield will not be making one penny. Remember that for each circuit there will be at least two 'interactions' with ATC, so they will be extremely busy, and hardly have time to draw breath.
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Those 40 movements in the hour would likely generate around £700! Which although not much in the grand scheme of things, it isn't nothing...
ps: Heathrow handles up to 90 movements an hour - maybe you meant Gatwick which handles around 55 at its peak?
Last edited by alex90; 17th Mar 2018 at 10:29. Reason: Added charges & now spelling...
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Hahaha!! Wouldnt that be great?!?? I think he most likely meant "integrated courses" some of which where airlines offer to lend part of the training (generally type rating) but you pay them back once you start earning so its not really funded by them....!
Hi Alex, I once lived in London, until we moved into the country, so am sorry to hear of the charging system being used by Biggin. Most of the GA airfields north of Birmingham, don't charge fees for resident aircraft T+Gs. Some even allow visiting aircraft up to 7 T+Gs at a reduced rate if they land or take on fuel.
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Hi Scifi,
I know - it is very sad... But people have to eat! So I respect this.
But when people keep telling me that us light GA don't pay... It does annoy me quite a bit because we do pay, at Biggin its presently around £15 for a touch and go, and £30 for a landing of a PA28 that's definitely not insignificant. Most other airfields that I know of charge £5 per T&G and £10-£15 per landing! As I mentioned above, I think my average payments are around £2k per year to the airfield in landing, approach, and TG fees... Although - it is true that they don't charge UKBA Customs fees when coming back from abroad.
Anyway - its just a shame, because now its just Southend that will accept GA and has IAP, hard runway and lights within an acceptable distance from London...
I know - it is very sad... But people have to eat! So I respect this.
But when people keep telling me that us light GA don't pay... It does annoy me quite a bit because we do pay, at Biggin its presently around £15 for a touch and go, and £30 for a landing of a PA28 that's definitely not insignificant. Most other airfields that I know of charge £5 per T&G and £10-£15 per landing! As I mentioned above, I think my average payments are around £2k per year to the airfield in landing, approach, and TG fees... Although - it is true that they don't charge UKBA Customs fees when coming back from abroad.
Anyway - its just a shame, because now its just Southend that will accept GA and has IAP, hard runway and lights within an acceptable distance from London...