Making gliders visible to GA aircraft
Avoid imitations
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Sounds like a good plan!
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Just to make it crystal clear it is now illegal to not turn on an ATC transponder and use the altitude reporting mode ( if fitted ).
Shy torque the “cheap systems” comment was aimed at the character who suggested that the glider community having got the fast majority of the fleet fitted with FLARM wants them to change to something called pilot aware.
With powerflarm able to locate FLARM , mode S and ADS-B targets as well as warning of the proximity of mode C targets it at a very reasonable cost it seems to tick most of the boxes at an affordable price.
My new avionic fit will have powerflarm mainly to counter the threat from gliders and ADS-B out for conspicuously to the high end systems, I would hope that this backing up the Mk1 eyeball will help me avoid the vast majority of traffic.
Shy torque the “cheap systems” comment was aimed at the character who suggested that the glider community having got the fast majority of the fleet fitted with FLARM wants them to change to something called pilot aware.
With powerflarm able to locate FLARM , mode S and ADS-B targets as well as warning of the proximity of mode C targets it at a very reasonable cost it seems to tick most of the boxes at an affordable price.
My new avionic fit will have powerflarm mainly to counter the threat from gliders and ADS-B out for conspicuously to the high end systems, I would hope that this backing up the Mk1 eyeball will help me avoid the vast majority of traffic.
admittedly the number of OG-Networks still need to increase, more are coming on stream this year but already the midlands seem to have sufficient numbers,
All for the princely sum of just under £200, you do the Maths, OK i will! 1/10 the price of a power flarm in my book its a no brainer,
Why would any power pilot spend 10 times as much for a system that offers less?
but i still use the mk 1 eyeball as well, but a audio alert of traffic approaching from behind or below in my aircraft is a welcome addition for targets NOT visible to my eyes,
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This is a critical point and unfortunately Flarm is of no use to radar controllers. Visibility on the radar screen typically drops in and out as gliders go into a turn or below a certain airspeed. They pop in and out of the controller's screen disappearing for minutes, then reappearing, then they disappear again, a nightmare to coordinate others around that, with typically no radio communications either.
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Ivorphillips
I have to say that my first comments had been based on the post above that suggested that al the gilders should convert to pilotaware, clearly the guy posting had not purchased the FLARM bolt on to his unit.
Pilot aware does look like a capable system and for those renting Aircraft is probably the best way to go however it will have limitations in metal or carbon Aircraft due to antenna considerations especially for mode C applications.
I don’t see the ADS-B in that you claim and I can’t see how it would interface with the mode S transponder in the average rented Aircraft.
My biggest criticism of the system is the power supply and all the wires that would float around the already cramped cockpit.
My main reason for going down the powerflarm route is not to have all the paraphernalia floating around the cockpit with the trafic display on the G500 map screen and the audio warnings via the Aircraft audio system coupled with the high reliability of a hard wired system and antennas fitted to the aircraft in places that avoid blanking by the airframe.
All these systems are a good back up for a good lookout but it must be remembered that the less you pay in terms of bolt on enhancements and ad-hoc installation the less well the system full function. In short you may well pay 10% of the cost of an installed system but in some aircraft from some directions you will get 0% performance, fortunately from the head on major threat angle the system performance is likely to be quite good.
Pilot aware does look like a capable system and for those renting Aircraft is probably the best way to go however it will have limitations in metal or carbon Aircraft due to antenna considerations especially for mode C applications.
I don’t see the ADS-B in that you claim and I can’t see how it would interface with the mode S transponder in the average rented Aircraft.
My biggest criticism of the system is the power supply and all the wires that would float around the already cramped cockpit.
My main reason for going down the powerflarm route is not to have all the paraphernalia floating around the cockpit with the trafic display on the G500 map screen and the audio warnings via the Aircraft audio system coupled with the high reliability of a hard wired system and antennas fitted to the aircraft in places that avoid blanking by the airframe.
All these systems are a good back up for a good lookout but it must be remembered that the less you pay in terms of bolt on enhancements and ad-hoc installation the less well the system full function. In short you may well pay 10% of the cost of an installed system but in some aircraft from some directions you will get 0% performance, fortunately from the head on major threat angle the system performance is likely to be quite good.
Looking at the PilotAware websitehttp://www.pilotawarehardware.com/dl/Introduction.pdf there is this statement:
I'm getting a PilotAware to connect to my shiny new Trig transponder via the RS232 port that my forward thinking avionics guru (thank you Harald) installed when he put the Trig in. It will also via the wonders of WiFi have the advantage of turning my ancient WiFi only iPad mini into my nav and traffic radar screen!
I never even dreamed that stuff like this would be possible 5 years ago let alone when I started multiple decades ago!
Do I need to connect PilotAware classic to a transponder for it to work?
You do not need to connect your PilotAware classic to a transponder for it to work. However, we have provided an RS232 interface for technically aware users to connect it to third party equipment if they want to. Caveat emptor.
This is usually done so that the GPS available in PilotAWare can be used as a positional source to convert a Mode S transponder with ES (Extended Squitter) to one capable of outputting ADSB signals. If this sounds like too much technical jargon don’t worry you don’t need it now but it may be useful later if the take up of ADSB becomes anything more than an expensive dream or expensive mandate. However if you have a Trig or Funke transponder or other suitable transponder then this is a real advantage that PilotAware gives you.
You do not need to connect your PilotAware classic to a transponder for it to work. However, we have provided an RS232 interface for technically aware users to connect it to third party equipment if they want to. Caveat emptor.
This is usually done so that the GPS available in PilotAWare can be used as a positional source to convert a Mode S transponder with ES (Extended Squitter) to one capable of outputting ADSB signals. If this sounds like too much technical jargon don’t worry you don’t need it now but it may be useful later if the take up of ADSB becomes anything more than an expensive dream or expensive mandate. However if you have a Trig or Funke transponder or other suitable transponder then this is a real advantage that PilotAware gives you.
I never even dreamed that stuff like this would be possible 5 years ago let alone when I started multiple decades ago!
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Looking at the PilotAware websitehttp://www.pilotawarehardware.com/dl/Introduction.pdf there is this statement:
I'm getting a PilotAware to connect to my shiny new Trig transponder via the RS232 port that my forward thinking avionics guru (thank you Harald) installed when he put the Trig in. It will also via the wonders of WiFi have the advantage of turning my ancient WiFi only iPad mini into my nav and traffic radar screen!
I never even dreamed that stuff like this would be possible 5 years ago let alone when I started multiple decades ago!
I'm getting a PilotAware to connect to my shiny new Trig transponder via the RS232 port that my forward thinking avionics guru (thank you Harald) installed when he put the Trig in. It will also via the wonders of WiFi have the advantage of turning my ancient WiFi only iPad mini into my nav and traffic radar screen!
I never even dreamed that stuff like this would be possible 5 years ago let alone when I started multiple decades ago!
AFAIK connecting a non-certified GPS source to do ADS-B out on transponder ES is still illegal.
Successful GPS trial allows general aviation to use full functionality of transponders
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you need to get your facts right! the CAA have been conducting test with permit aircraft for the last couple of years doing just that,
my own aircraft that i have fitted a Pilotaware to has a uncertified GPS and as long as it is configured to output a SIL 0. through my Mode S transponder then it’s perfecty legal, A LAA MOD 7 paperwork had to be completed before my new permit was issued last June,
The CAA has been checking the accuracy of the ADS-B out from many permit aircraft since 2016 and found it satisfactory and well within the limits they we’re expecting,
so i suggest you read the relevant LAA mod 7 to get your facts straight,
ChickenHouse, you really do need to get your facts right before you go around insulting people. I actually do happen to give a sh#t on legal issues as most of the legal issues around flying are written in some poor unfortunates blood.
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The U.K. CAA initiative on carriage of ADS-B equipment by GA aircraft should be congratulated as a major move towards GA safety, data collected is pointing towards this becoming a viable basis for affordable anti collision system.
The use of non IFR approved GPS is covered by label in the transmitted data indicating the quantity of the GPS.
One can only hope that EASA will show a little more flexibility when it comes to enabling ADS-B equipment , especaly well known and certified IFR systems that require an STC for each airframe Type , this makes high quality ADS-B installation prohibitive for Aircraft that don’t have an FAA type certificate.
The use of non IFR approved GPS is covered by label in the transmitted data indicating the quantity of the GPS.
One can only hope that EASA will show a little more flexibility when it comes to enabling ADS-B equipment , especaly well known and certified IFR systems that require an STC for each airframe Type , this makes high quality ADS-B installation prohibitive for Aircraft that don’t have an FAA type certificate.
The suggestion that £2172 is expensive puts a very low value on your life
I don't know how exhaustive this list is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Kingdom#2010s
but it suggests civilian mid-air collisions aren't that common. Let's say for the sake of argument that an infallible early warning device could save 1 life a year and there are 14000 active GA aircraft in the UK, all of which need devices to be fitted. The unit may cost £2k, but it'll probably average £3k by the time it's installed. The average device lifetime is 15 years.
14000*3000/15 = 2.8 million pounds per life saved. To be honest, I think I'm probably being significantly generous to the devices.
The NHS aims to buy one quality-adjusted-life-year for about 20-30K, so if the average pilot has 40 years of life ahead of him/her then a life-saving treatment that cost 1.2 million or more would be judged uncost effective. I believe that there's a threshold around the 2 million mark per life saved as to when improvements to roads become cost-effective.
Public health economics isn't something I know a great deal about, so feel free to adjust the assumptions or correct my methodology. But my point is that it's not obvious that a system at this price is good value for money. If you spent the money elsewhere (perhaps on more training, or on running shoes for jogging) it would probably do more good.
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ABGD
You make a good point but with the uptake of these systems it would seem that some in the GA world have taken things into their own hands and fitted these systems.
The MoD has had an upmarket traffic system and FLARM fitted to its Grob Tutor fleet as well as other aircraft so clearly they think it is worth carrying the kit.
The MoD has had an upmarket traffic system and FLARM fitted to its Grob Tutor fleet as well as other aircraft so clearly they think it is worth carrying the kit.
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There's a good analysis by the BGA, LAA and BHPA online. Google "An analysis of mid-air collisions involving UK registered civil aircraft".
In the 37 years since 1975, disregarding hang gliders, 178 aircraft were involved in 89 mid-airs of which 38 involved 74 fatalities. So two fatalities per year.
Perhaps that explains why the various EC systems are getting the take-up that they have had.
If a system costs £2-3K installed, on the sums described a post or two ago, it's on the rational edge of behaviour to install it (though an individual pilot may value their life at more than the state does for investment purposes)
Flarm has high take-up because, at least at first, the entry cost wasn't too prohibitive, at perhaps £600, and the threat between gliders was relatively high (102 of the 178 involved mid-air aircraft were gliders or tugs).
ADSB to date has low take up because the costs have been prohibitive (this may change with LPAT).
PilotAware is demonstrating that at £200, it's probably almost an impulse purchase, and well below the threshold that make sense, so lots of people are buying it.
In all cases, of course, there is an issue of critical mass - there's no point in being the only pilot with an electronic conspicuity system in the sky. It's like being the owner of the only telephone in the world. Also, there's probably extra money that people will pay for situational awareness - for example, in the case of Flarm people are prepared to pay more to get information about people that aren't actually a threat to them.
Paul
In the 37 years since 1975, disregarding hang gliders, 178 aircraft were involved in 89 mid-airs of which 38 involved 74 fatalities. So two fatalities per year.
Perhaps that explains why the various EC systems are getting the take-up that they have had.
If a system costs £2-3K installed, on the sums described a post or two ago, it's on the rational edge of behaviour to install it (though an individual pilot may value their life at more than the state does for investment purposes)
Flarm has high take-up because, at least at first, the entry cost wasn't too prohibitive, at perhaps £600, and the threat between gliders was relatively high (102 of the 178 involved mid-air aircraft were gliders or tugs).
ADSB to date has low take up because the costs have been prohibitive (this may change with LPAT).
PilotAware is demonstrating that at £200, it's probably almost an impulse purchase, and well below the threshold that make sense, so lots of people are buying it.
In all cases, of course, there is an issue of critical mass - there's no point in being the only pilot with an electronic conspicuity system in the sky. It's like being the owner of the only telephone in the world. Also, there's probably extra money that people will pay for situational awareness - for example, in the case of Flarm people are prepared to pay more to get information about people that aren't actually a threat to them.
Paul
Points taken.
At the same time, your link shows that of the 178 aircraft involved in collisions, 96 were gliders and 68 powered GA aircraft (excluding glider tugs). Powered aircraft collisions are more likely to kill someone (0.62 versus 0.26 fatalities per aircraft). Collisions between gliders and powered aircraft are rare.
The UK GA register shows 1750 gliders of about 13000 aircraft registered to fly. So all in all it's clear that gliders are much more likely to be involved in collisions than powered aircraft and despite the lower lethality of such incidents, they do account for the majority of mid-air deaths.
So I think it makes sense to treat gliders and powered aircraft separately.
At the same time, your link shows that of the 178 aircraft involved in collisions, 96 were gliders and 68 powered GA aircraft (excluding glider tugs). Powered aircraft collisions are more likely to kill someone (0.62 versus 0.26 fatalities per aircraft). Collisions between gliders and powered aircraft are rare.
The UK GA register shows 1750 gliders of about 13000 aircraft registered to fly. So all in all it's clear that gliders are much more likely to be involved in collisions than powered aircraft and despite the lower lethality of such incidents, they do account for the majority of mid-air deaths.
So I think it makes sense to treat gliders and powered aircraft separately.
PaulisHome quotes... 102 of the 178 involved mid-air aircraft were gliders or tugs. So the problem lies firmly in the Glider community. They choose to orbit in close proximity to other gliders, and have a very small cross sectional area. They also wear parachutes, because they realise they are very likely to bump into each other.
The GA fraternity has made great efforts in making itself visible, with High Intensity Strobe lights, Mode S Transponders, and having a constant radio service from a radar ATC station. They can also fly with both their 150 Watt landing lights switched on when needed.
GA aircraft also reflect radar waves very well. A Glass Fibre or Wooden Glider has almost no reflecting material, apart from the metal control pedals.
Also how many glider pilots have their FRTL radio license, and keep in contact with an ATC unit, most don't, and just chat to each other on their private glider soaring frequencies. If they only could talk on the GA frequencies, they could explain where they are located, for us all to hear and avoid.
In the last 6 years I have only ever heard one glider on our radio, but have been given 'Traffic Advice' on over ten occasions from ATC, warning of 'Traffic in your 11 o/clock, similar height, range two miles', to which we can respond.. ' I have that traffic in sight, thank you.'
.
The GA fraternity has made great efforts in making itself visible, with High Intensity Strobe lights, Mode S Transponders, and having a constant radio service from a radar ATC station. They can also fly with both their 150 Watt landing lights switched on when needed.
GA aircraft also reflect radar waves very well. A Glass Fibre or Wooden Glider has almost no reflecting material, apart from the metal control pedals.
Also how many glider pilots have their FRTL radio license, and keep in contact with an ATC unit, most don't, and just chat to each other on their private glider soaring frequencies. If they only could talk on the GA frequencies, they could explain where they are located, for us all to hear and avoid.
In the last 6 years I have only ever heard one glider on our radio, but have been given 'Traffic Advice' on over ten occasions from ATC, warning of 'Traffic in your 11 o/clock, similar height, range two miles', to which we can respond.. ' I have that traffic in sight, thank you.'
.
Last edited by scifi; 1st Mar 2018 at 09:49.
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I know, lycra wearing louts of the air.
*admission, to my mothers eternal shame, I do have a license to operate spamcans.*
But someone has to take a stand against the insufferable oiks who believe boring holes in the sky with spamcans to get yet another £100 bacon roll/coffee makes them superior to those artistically soaring the skies in tune with the energy around them.
I have _extremely_ limited panel space in which to get gizmos into, I have managed to get Flarm and a Trig transponder (which I do switch on these days, usually)
Mode S seems very gentle on batteries, with all the kit running I get about 9 hours per (22AH) battery.
I have absolutely _no_ space for another gizmo, I can fit the Trig ADSB out doofer when it gets certified as it'll be behind the panel, but that's it.
I've even had to move the sound system to behind me, now it's so close to the Mic that I've had complaints about the music playing when transmitting
The CAA said, ADS B is the way forward.
So, I'm taking them at their word and going for it. I'll continue to use Flarm as it is in common use and despite the ancient hardware works reasonably, it also takes up zero panel space as the display is fed through to my primary nav computer (and to the secondary)
There is a doofer which feeds ADS B through to both nav computers, gives ADS B traffic and has a decent stab at guessing Mode C.
Running all that kit on a standard lead acid battery would give me 2 and a bit hours of use . . it is a complete pain in the hoop to change battery systems out but, given the way things are going, it's got to be done.
Mk1 eyeball, almost entirely useless for glider traffic in the cruise, you will _never_ see me if I'm not turning and close to your alt.
Electronic conspicuity is the way forward, which version you use is up to you.
Flarm is well established but our lords and masters have said ADS B.
Gliders will always have a higher collision risk through the way we fly in competitions, gaggle flying has upwards of 20 gliders in very very close proximity, mistakes happen, as do collisions.
It's a risk we understand when flying in comps.
Bringing in yet more systems to this mix is going to worsen the compatibility issue (at least in the short term) relying on systems which rely on ground based repeaters is, I feel, a mistake on another mistake.
Also how many glider pilots have their FRTL radio license, and keep in contact with an ATC unit................... If they only could talk on the GA frequencies, they could explain where they are located, for us all to hear and avoid.
Well we could, but somehow I doubt it would help.
Well we could, but somehow I doubt it would help.
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Airwave45
I see a lot of intolerance from both sides in this debate, but no one wins when an aircraft and a gilder collide wile both using different anti collision systems so there seem no point I lots of name calling.
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True, but it's snowing and it keeps the entertainment levels up.