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Switching between Part-FCL LAPL/PPL

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Switching between Part-FCL LAPL/PPL

Old 17th Jan 2018, 22:04
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Switching between Part-FCL LAPL/PPL

Hello

I currently hold an EASA Part-FCL PPL, but due to various issues my Class 2 medical has been suspended.

This has left me in quite a dire situation as I was in the middle of my hour building towards the prerequisites for the CPL/IR and I've got the expiry of my ATPL exam passes coming up in August.

I'm going through the CAA's painfully slow appeals process at the moment, but to avoid wasting time I am looking into the possibility of getting LAPL medical certification so that I can at least continue to build hours while waiting for the outcome. That way, if I am successful, I can jump straight into the IR then CPL (as I will likely have built a sufficient number of hours if I can get at least LAPL medical certification).

I understand that unlike holding a CPL with Class 2 certification (where I assume I can just use it as a PPL), I can't hold an EASA PPL with only LAPL medical certification and just use privileges of the corresponding license (LAPL). I also understand I can't hold more than one airplane license.

So as far as I can tell in order to use a LAPL I would need to give up my PPL and apply for a LAPL, then, on regaining certification, surrender my LAPL and apply for a PPL again so I can start the IR.

Does anyone have experience with this process?

My main concern is the length of time the process takes. As I have to give up one license when I apply for the other, I'm assuming I'll be grounded the entire time the application sits in the CAA assessor's inbox (both times)?

Any feedback would be great.

Thanks

CS.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 22:46
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Section 5. Part a. Appendix 1. Bottom of page 6.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 23:20
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My understanding is that there are moves afoot to allow a full EASA PPL to be used with an LAPL medical (with LAPL privileges only) and that this change is expected possibly in the second half of this year.
The existing requirement to give up a full PPL to enable an LAPL to be used with an LAPL medical is absurd, particularly since reacquiring a full PPL will again necessitate more expense and testing.
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Old 17th Jan 2018, 23:56
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Thanks guys.

I didn't realise reacquiring the PPL would require more testing, I thought it was a paper and stamp exercise.

Rudestuff, can I ask which document you're referring to?
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 06:39
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I didn't realise reacquiring the PPL would require more testing
Only if your SEP Class Rating had lapsed.

The rumour about converting a LAPL back to a PPL when only the medical had been downgraded, everything else remaining valid, started elsewhere. According to my CAA contacts, it is untrue - the LAPL-to-PPL conversion criteria published in the Aircrew Regulation apply only to initial issue.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 07:05
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If you meet the standards for medical declaration, ask the CAA for a National licence (UK PPL A). This will cost you £30. They don't have a bespoke form for it, they often ask you to fill in bits of other forms so that they can capture your details. They issued mine based on an email request. Having directed many flying friends to this service, you will get best results if you use the counter service. This will cost you money, but your time appears to be short!

With a UK PPL and a self declaration, you can continue to fly EASA aircraft until April within the UK and Permit to Fly aircraft indefintely.

You'll be able to log hours until you resolve your medical issues.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 07:22
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cap804 of course. You should be able to hold an NPPL concurrently and use it to fly with no medical. But you'll be to act fast as I think they stop issuing them soon.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 07:51
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Rudestuff is suggesting you apply for a UK NPPL(A) via the 'Allowances against training' document in CAP 804 Section 5 Part A Appendix 1. However, all national licences will only be useable in EASA aeroplanes up until 08th April 2018 when the existing derogation expires. As suggested by jollyrog, you could get a UK (non-EASA) PPL(A) issued cheaper via the UK CAA and validate that with a Pilot Medical Declaration and have the same privileges.

cap804 of course. You should be able to hold an NPPL concurrently and use it to fly with no medical. But you'll be to act fast as I think they stop issuing them soon.
You can hold a national licence concurrently with an EASA licence. The UK NPPL(A) will continue to be issued after the 08th April 2018, as will the SSEA class rating to add into the NPPL(A). The problem many will have is that the EASA conversion agreement only covered the EASA transition period which expires on 08th April 2018 - so any NPPL(A) with a SSEA class rating issued prior to that date can be converted at any time to an EASA LAPL(A) via paperwork process only. From 08th April 2018 and beyond, there is currently no conversion available and no credit towards a LAPL or PPL...

Use of a LAPL Medical with an EASA PPL(A) is proposed within EASA NPA 2014-29(A) and subsequent Opinion 05/2017. A future amendment to EASA Aircrew Regulation is expected Q2/2018 to allow this:

PROPOSED TEXT:

FCL.205.A PPL(A)—privileges

(a) The privileges of holders of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilots of aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations and exercise all privileges of holders of an LAPL(A).
Associated explanatory text states:

FCL.205.A PPL(A) — privileges

In (a), the exercise of all the privileges of the holder of an LAPL(A) is included in the privileges for the holder of a PPL(A) to avoid unnecessary administrative burden on GA pilots when they do no longer fulfil the conditions for a Class 2 medical certificate, but those for an LAPL medical certificate. With this amendment, GA pilots do not need to have an LAPL(A) issued but may use their PPL(A) as an LAPL(A).
ifitaint...
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 11:29
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Thanks, ifitaint. Very helpful.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 13:17
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Thanks everyone, that's extremely helpful.

I have actually considered applying for the NPPL and using a medical self-declaration. But my understanding was I would need to go through the full process of filling out the official form from the NPPL website and sending it off to the LAA along with cheques of £102 for the LAA and £51 for the CAA.

I hadn't considered applying for a UK PPL(A) at all, didn't realise they were still being issued.

I've sent an email off to FCLweb asking for clarification. I also need clarification on the medical side too. As far as I can tell, I meet the medical requirements for the self-declaration. However, as I have specifically been made unfit, I really don't want to risk the wrath of the CAA medical department if they specifically believe I shouldn't be using it. I'll have to wait until I have a decision in writing that they consider it appropriate to use this facility before I go ahead with it.

I'm aware of the deadline of 8th April to make use of this exception for EASA aircraft. This was my original motivation for applying for a LAPL.

I've heard of the proposed amendment but have been unable to find anything up-to-date. Thanks for the update ifitaint. It's good news in general but I guess may come too late to be of use to me personally!
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 14:11
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I would say, don't fall into the trap of inventing rules where rules don't exist or seeking clarification where no clarification is required.

The self declaration is just that - self declaration. It doesn't involve a medical person. You either believe that you meet the criteria specified in the declaration document, or you don't.

There are whole bunch of pilots out there who have failed/lost their medicals, with disqualifying conditions, who now benefit from the self-declaration process. The CAA know this and that's why they introduced it. It's very clear, if you don't tick all the boxes, and there aren't many if you only want to fly small aircraft, you must obtain an LAPL medical.

Get on with it! Make an appointment for counter service, get the UK PPL (A) and you could be flying again by next week.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 14:15
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Oh, I meant to say, FCLWeb take weeks to answer emails. It's a waste of time writing to them if you are in a hurry.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 14:57
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Thanks again jollyrog for your feedback.

Part of the reason for emailing them was not just for reassurance, but also because there doesn't seem to be some published procedure for applying for a UK PPL? The lady I spoke to on the phone said the only way to find out would be to write in. The entry for the UK PPL(A) in CAP804 also seems to have been deleted (Section 5 Part B Subpart 1 Page 1 "intentionally left blank")?

Last edited by CrazyScientist; 18th Jan 2018 at 15:13.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 15:01
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Originally Posted by CrazyScientist
Thanks again jollyrog for your feedback.

Part of the reason for emailing them was not just for reassurance, but also because there doesn't seem to be some published procedure for applying for a UK PPL? The lady I spoke to on the phone said the only way to find out would be to write in. The entry for the UK PPL(A) in CAP804 also seems to have been deleted (Section 5 Part B Subpart 1 Page 1 "intentionally left blank")?
See my first post. No form. A bit chaotic. Go in person. It does exist and it’s £30.
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Old 18th Jan 2018, 23:52
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If I've understood correctly, doesn't all the paperwork have to be sorted and ready to check/sign off before the appointment for same day service is booked?
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Old 19th Jan 2018, 19:06
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And be sure you have Level 6 English.
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Old 13th Feb 2018, 23:10
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Sorry to bump this thread, but I'm just wondering how can I check for updates on the latest progress with EASA NPA 2014-29(A)?

I'm finding it quite difficult to navigate the EASA website for the relevant information. I see Opinion 05/2017 has been published in association with this, but it states only that the 'Decision' will come 'Q2 2018' as quoted by ifitaint. Is there any more specific information than this?

I may be eligible for LAPL certification after all, and if this new legislation comes into effect reasonably soon then it could mean the removal of a huge burden (the hassle of having to switch back and forth between licences).
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Old 14th Feb 2018, 04:41
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I tried looking too but couldn’t find way around the website
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 16:30
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Originally Posted by CrazyScientist
Sorry to bump this thread, but I'm just wondering how can I check for updates on the latest progress with EASA NPA 2014-29(A)?
EASA says that the changes associated with Opinion 5/2017 (e.g. LAPL privileges within PPL) are likely to go to vote in EASA Committee in June 2018, and so if it passes the changes would take effect from the end of 2018, or possibly 8 April 2019 if they go with that date as the day on which Aircrew Regulation changes take effect.

I am personally interested as I have a mild colour vision deficiency, resulting in a VCL restriction on my Class 2 medical but passing the LAPL standard for night rating.


/h88
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Old 21st Feb 2018, 16:45
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Ah, no chance of it being relevant to me then - thanks for clarifying! No way I would have been able to figure it out on my own. Just for future reference, is that timescale published on the EASA website somewhere? I can see mention of 'Q2 2018' as the point for the 'Decision' milestone, but cannot find anything to suggest why it would be the end of 2018 that such a change would actually take effect.
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