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Maps are obsolete

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Maps are obsolete

Old 13th Nov 2017, 14:38
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I have encountered quite a few examples where paper charts were very much in error.

One of them resulted in a helicopter flying into an island not depicted on the charts being used, with the usual tragic result.

I've also had to fly and operate (as in find my way and land) in terrain where the only available charts were completely blank and annotated "not surveyed". No other navaids were available at the time and GPS was still at the military secret stage, the required satellites were not then even in orbit.

Not too many years ago the CAA miraculously re-situated the 1117' AMSL mast at Princes Risborough to a position to the north west of Kenley. Unfortunately it was the dominant obstacle to the north west of the LHR CTR and thankfully no-one flew into it because it was definitely still in its original place. It was some months before a chart amendment was issued.

The present CAA 1/2 mil charts were issued with errors showing active glider sites as disused airfields.....
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 15:03
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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The charts should be used in conjunction with the latest amendments - here is an example for the half million southern 1:500,000

Amendments for Southern England & Wales - Edition: 43, 02/03/2017
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 15:04
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
I have encountered quite a few examples where paper charts were very much in error.

One of them resulted in a helicopter flying into an island not depicted on the charts being used, with the usual tragic result.

I've also had to fly and operate (as in find my way and land) in terrain where the only available charts were completely blank and annotated "not surveyed". No other navaids were available at the time and GPS was still at the military secret stage, the required satellites were not then even in orbit.

Not too many years ago the CAA miraculously re-situated the 1117' AMSL mast at Princes Risborough to a position to the north west of Kenley. Unfortunately it was the dominant obstacle to the north west of the LHR CTR and thankfully no-one flew into it because it was definitely still in its original place. It was some months before a chart amendment was issued.

The present CAA 1/2 mil charts were issued with errors showing active glider sites as disused airfields.....
Not only CAA charts. For many years, the RAF printed and issued a quarter mil for SE England depicting a couple of gliding/parascending sites to the east of Greenwich meridian incorrectly, the chart maker having placed them west of Greenwich by the same number of degrees as they should have been to the east.

Last edited by chevvron; 14th Nov 2017 at 00:09.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 15:31
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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If you're using SkyDemon or similar you can print out your route before you fly as a back up in case the electronics go mammaries vertical during flight.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 15:58
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Sam I think the thread you raised is an interesting one, and the glass gage likewise the children of magenta make interesting viewing. But I suppose how much technolgy you want in your life diring recreational activities. Anyone will know how annoying it is going on holiday family, and loading up you car with telephone, digital camers and IPad chargers and a variety of chargers. I rather not have a television or mobile signal, so the children can detox from technology.

I worry that new qualified pilots post qualification actually develop their navigation skills, likewise if the newly qualified MPL pilots could navigate a light aircraft at night or in IMC at night, let alone recognise geographical features across Europe!

Moving on to single crew or pilotless aircraft, I do not think in the next hundred year a single person will be able to operate an airliner from the ground or in the air, simply down to the action of one person in the Germanwings accident.

Likewise automated self driving trucks and cars, what is the point, if I go somewhere in my car, I rather just drive, and anyone who has used a satnav in their car, the ridiculous route the take you on. Ultimately, from a legal point someone needs to be liable for the car, which I guess means it can not drive you back from the pub if you are over the limit.

To conclude, I think you should not use GPS, VOR's or for navigation until you have mastered dead reckoning, but when you do start using GPS or EFIs you still need to fly by sole reference to charts in the event of electrical failure or system sytems failure. i really wonder if plotting use VOR, NDB and VDF, but no DME or TACAN is a lost art.

Before you all think I am a ludite, I really like Garmin 340 as a Nav/Com setup, but you need to know the basics of DR and plotting. I should add that I usually carry a Garmin 12 XL which in an emergency is great for QDMs to saved runway thresholds so almost as good as localiser/DME, NDB, VDF approaches or SRA's.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 16:27
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I back the OPs arguments all the way ! GPS is my primary means of aviation navigation. I argued strongly for its teaching to be included into the student syllabus.


I am tho' a traditionalist. At the age of sixteen I became a British Merchant Navy cadet and was taught the arts of coastal and celestial navigation. There is a special pleasure obtained from using ruler, chart, dividers and protractor, though their use is next to impossible when flying.


My recreation is now gained from sailing small boats. Navigation information is readily gained from a combination of GPS and Navtex. Do I use it? Seldom. I prefer traditional means and in a sailing vessel have the time to do so. Time and speed are the major differences between boat and aircraft. In an aircraft you need an instant confirmation of where you are. Not so instant in a boat.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 16:27
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Sam, I'm sure you started the fire just to see how long it will burn, but here goes-

throwing a bit of fuel on the fire, I actually think that using a chart rather than an electronic alternative is poor airmanship.
I must be a realy bad pilot, becaus along with mothminor-
My own little aeroplane has no electrics, good job I have a 1/4 mill map.
And I fly with no radio
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 16:36
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I am genuinely interested to hear from those choosing charts over ipads (or whatever) - and am surprised by the number of supporters for charts (neither negatively nor positively). I thought there would be a consensus for electronic solutions which is not the case.

I did use the word alternative. If you don't have an alternative then you gotta go with whatever you got...
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 16:54
  #49 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by fireflybob
The charts should be used in conjunction with the latest amendments - here is an example for the half million southern 1:500,000

Amendments for Southern England & Wales - Edition: 43, 02/03/2017
Yes, obviously any chart needs to be kept updated. But how many pilots can honestly say they do so by regularly checking the published list and permanently appending their chart?
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 18:34
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I´ve been flying for over a quarter century and was trained to use paper charts and the magnetic compass. These were the days when the TMA´s around were not even half as large as they are today, and usually in pretty remote areas. We even flew off the chart into our neighboring country...

Nowadays I am a strong supporter of using digital charts and a navigation app like Sky Demon or similar. Frankly speaking, I believe anybody flying in unfamiliar areas with complex airspace and deliberately not using any (cheap) sort of moving map is acting foolishly. I´ve had more than one guy call me after landing after busting our TMA.

I still practice using paper charts sometimes for the fun of it, but I do so in rather remote areas. Also, I only carry the Airmillion chart as (fourth) backup, not the 1:500.000 anymore.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 18:59
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But how many pilots can honestly say they do so by regularly checking the published list and permanently appending their chart?
Probably because they weren't taught to do so in basic training.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 20:01
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Looking back through my log books some of my most interesting flights were using 1 mil maps with nothing on them. Flying across the Australian outback from MT Isa to Alice,Ulura to Port Augusta and Adelaide,Ceduna,Kalgoorlie to Perth.

This in 1989 with no navaids just a map and compass. GPS has taken a lot of the navigation skill out of flying in my opinion. Long distances on dead reckoning.

In many respects it mirrors the average home. Switch off the electricty and the phone,internet,heating cooking etc is gone.

A chart is a good solid old fashioned method of finding your way from A to B that will never let you down.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 21:21
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
I am genuinely interested to hear from those choosing charts over ipads (or whatever) - and am surprised by the number of supporters for charts (neither negatively nor positively).
No great interest in iTat, but I do rather like to use a panel mounted certified G1000 in conjunction with the paper charts.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 22:42
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I think sectional maps of the Rocky Mountain Continental Divide are beautiful artwork.
They are also excellent back-up systems.
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Old 13th Nov 2017, 22:52
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Originally Posted by fireflybob
Probably because they weren't taught to do so in basic training.
We can only blame those responsible for basic training....
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 01:00
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All the issues with airspace infringements we've had as a club over the last few years have been luddite duffers flying with maps as primary nav.
We as a club, are probably going to decline to tow people who don't have electronics as primary nav in the near future.
A map is useful to have, to keep the sun off, poke bugs off the wing through the DV panel, additional insulation above FL150, absolutely useless in this day and age for primary nav.

Bluster all you like about stopwatches, dead reconing and 1/4mil maps, life has moved on, if that is your primary nav, you are exercising poor airmanship and are a danger to all around you.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 08:02
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There are also duty-of-care issues. If you send someone off with only a 1/2m on their first cross-country and they bust airspace and/or get into other navigational difficulties when modern electronic aids were available, the word “negligent” comes to mind.

The cost of having an accurate moving map with you is so low now, it must be one of the cheapest devices you can get for an aeroplane. There’s nothing stopping you navigating by the stars and a trusty chart but if you mess up, don’t expect any sympathy from the Authority...
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 09:01
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I’m over 70, I don’t have an up to date paper chart for anywhere. I have skydemon on iPad with all the plates and maps for most of Europe and a Garmin 650 in the panel. I fly IFR and VFR all over the place. It is impossible to fly a light aircraft IFR without GPS. If anyone switches off the GPS I’ll ask ATC for vectors to where I want to be.
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 11:22
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Johnm


Spot on !
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Old 14th Nov 2017, 16:23
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Pilots should be trained and practised to use all the "tools in the box".

On a PPL skills test if GPS is fitted to the aircraft the candidate has to demonstrate that he/she can use the basic functions of same. Equally during the navigation element of the test they have to demonstrate that they can navigate to a point just using map and compass etc.

For me it's not an "either or" argument which tends to polarise discussion as this thread clearly shows. I teach students that good pilots use strategies to keep the workload as low as possible aka "Keep It Simple Stupid". On certain occasions it might be much simpler to visually follow a line feature, on others when close to complex unfamiliar airspace it might be much more appropriate to use devices such as Skydemon etc or indeed to use a combination of both.

However as I have alluded to before much of this comes back to the quality of training which the pilot has received and also how they keep themselves refreshed with changes. All too often I find the quality of nav training is poor or even non existent. This is not the fault of the instructors who are trying to do their best with the tools that they have but all too often these days they were not trained correctly! Of course there are some exceptions but airspace infringements still occur when pilots are using GPS!
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