Buying a Socata TB10 and operating costs..
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EASA Safety Publications Tool, advanced search.
Thank You - just what I was looking for!
Tried to access this the other day but it was a corrupt URL!
I would touch base with these people:
https://www.savvyaviation.com
A regularly flown engine with proper maintenance and monitoring can be flown well past TBO - provided the local regulator allows.
Their website has a wealth of information on engine monitoring and borescope inspections.
https://www.savvyaviation.com
A regularly flown engine with proper maintenance and monitoring can be flown well past TBO - provided the local regulator allows.
Their website has a wealth of information on engine monitoring and borescope inspections.
Scoobster
May I share my experience as someone who has been trustee of 4 groups over 25 years flying C of A aircraft (B121, C182).
To achieve enough utilisation to justify ownership (with UK weather) all partners need to be IRr rated and the aircraft suitably equiped.
Having a CS prop will add significantly to the maintenance cost (6 year o/h).
I think your maintenance estimate is far too low - expect £4-6k per annum and be prepared for the unexpected - I've had top-o/h 35hours after excellent compression test (£10k), new prop due to corrosion at 3rd o/h (£10k), avionics repair (£3k) etc etc
I've also had to factor respray (£9k), avionics upgrades (£8k & £6k), interior refurb (£4k) etc
There is nothing to beat owning a share in your own aircraft . However flying a C of A aircraft in EASAland is very expensive and I have witnessed a lot of groups at my airfield fail due to an inability to meet the ongoing costs.
Please don't be put off by my rambling, just enter ownership with a realistic awareness of the potential costs.
May I share my experience as someone who has been trustee of 4 groups over 25 years flying C of A aircraft (B121, C182).
To achieve enough utilisation to justify ownership (with UK weather) all partners need to be IRr rated and the aircraft suitably equiped.
Having a CS prop will add significantly to the maintenance cost (6 year o/h).
I think your maintenance estimate is far too low - expect £4-6k per annum and be prepared for the unexpected - I've had top-o/h 35hours after excellent compression test (£10k), new prop due to corrosion at 3rd o/h (£10k), avionics repair (£3k) etc etc
I've also had to factor respray (£9k), avionics upgrades (£8k & £6k), interior refurb (£4k) etc
There is nothing to beat owning a share in your own aircraft . However flying a C of A aircraft in EASAland is very expensive and I have witnessed a lot of groups at my airfield fail due to an inability to meet the ongoing costs.
Please don't be put off by my rambling, just enter ownership with a realistic awareness of the potential costs.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi snchater,
Thank You for sharing that insight.
I have only done the first iteration of the spreadsheet and this will evolve into a 'forecast' where I am able to add in figures that are probably more realistic like you have given above.
Until we meet with our maintenance shop - or have an idea about what maintenance is required the figures will probably need constant tweaking - if it proves to be expensive then we will have to 're-evaluate' our plan to own.
As a trustee - are you or we required to have a separate bank account of the group and is this 'tax' liable??
Thanks.
Scoobster
Thank You for sharing that insight.
I have only done the first iteration of the spreadsheet and this will evolve into a 'forecast' where I am able to add in figures that are probably more realistic like you have given above.
Until we meet with our maintenance shop - or have an idea about what maintenance is required the figures will probably need constant tweaking - if it proves to be expensive then we will have to 're-evaluate' our plan to own.
As a trustee - are you or we required to have a separate bank account of the group and is this 'tax' liable??
Thanks.
Scoobster
There is no requirement to have a separate bank account but I have always used one . It is useful for paying standing orders into (monthly charge) and for paying bills (insurance,hangarage/parking, maintenance etc).
As there is no interest paid on the current account I have never declared to HMRC.
As there is no interest paid on the current account I have never declared to HMRC.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Glasgow Scotland
Age: 64
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you, or any of your group actually sat in a TB10? I had my eye on one recently, until I sat in it. I'm 6'4", and my head was hitting the top of the cabin, without a headset on. I couldn't see a height adjuster on either of the front seats. I'm led to believe that it's caused by the main wing spar passing right under the front seats. Worth a thought, if you have any tall group members.
On the cost side of it, until a couple of years ago, I was part of a group of 3 with a Grumman AA5. We all paid £100 a month, and £2.00 a minute airborne time. This was enough to cover our ongoing fixed costs, occasional maintenance and fuel. Come annual time there was usually something left in the kitty, and we 'cash called' for the balance. We actually sold it, as it was vastly under used in the last couple of years, and the cash calls became too much.
As others have said on here, I think your estimate for your annuals is a bit light - double it!
Also be aware if you are taking it away from the current maintenance organisation, as a new organisation, unfamiliar with the particular airframe will likely be - quite properly, as they have to sign it off - more 'picky' on marginal maintenance issues which the previous maintainers would have been monitoring. Expensive and demorilising experience for the guy who bought our aircraft, and moved it to a different shop.
On the cost side of it, until a couple of years ago, I was part of a group of 3 with a Grumman AA5. We all paid £100 a month, and £2.00 a minute airborne time. This was enough to cover our ongoing fixed costs, occasional maintenance and fuel. Come annual time there was usually something left in the kitty, and we 'cash called' for the balance. We actually sold it, as it was vastly under used in the last couple of years, and the cash calls became too much.
As others have said on here, I think your estimate for your annuals is a bit light - double it!
Also be aware if you are taking it away from the current maintenance organisation, as a new organisation, unfamiliar with the particular airframe will likely be - quite properly, as they have to sign it off - more 'picky' on marginal maintenance issues which the previous maintainers would have been monitoring. Expensive and demorilising experience for the guy who bought our aircraft, and moved it to a different shop.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: London
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We sat in one and flew over the weekend.. Im not as tall as you.. 5ft 11 and though I wasnt P1 I was back seating and with my headset on my head or top of headset kept hitting the overhead panel which was a bit annoying! Maybe not a show stopper though..
I found it to be quite stable with a good cruise speed and quite responsive and giving full power at 2700 RPM even for an engine on condition! Though we havent gone for this one.. and are still looking I did find the all round view amazing as in a PA28 you can't see didly squat out the back!
Maintenance wise I have had a chat with a few shops and the one I have in mind has 3 TB10s to break sp plenty of parts should the need arise..but agreed on what you say!
Still looking but widening the search to other aircraft.. though in my opinion TB10s represent quite good value!
Scoobster
I found it to be quite stable with a good cruise speed and quite responsive and giving full power at 2700 RPM even for an engine on condition! Though we havent gone for this one.. and are still looking I did find the all round view amazing as in a PA28 you can't see didly squat out the back!
Maintenance wise I have had a chat with a few shops and the one I have in mind has 3 TB10s to break sp plenty of parts should the need arise..but agreed on what you say!
Still looking but widening the search to other aircraft.. though in my opinion TB10s represent quite good value!
Scoobster
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a CEO of group once and maintenance is always higher than you think many hidden costs. The idea of fixed costs and timed maintenance on monthly is good I also built some into the hourly and any surplus into the engine fund. Denham is a good call for a base one of the cheapest but did only accept groups up to 8. 721 mtr hard runway good fuel prices and airfield owner operated flying club on the north side so best to park north side with membership of the club. Looking at the specs this will not be a 4 seater for touring a Cherokee six would be better, the extra fuel burn is small compared to the overall costs and to keep costs down a fixed prop is much cheaper. On only 400 left the suggest TBO is 2000 hours but Lycoming expects it to only make that if operated 40 hours a month, so regard this engine as timed out for purchase. Compressions mean almost nothing it would still make full power with very low ones. On the 360 it is cam profile wear that robs power plus lots of problems with valve sticking. I would want to see at least a 1000 hours left on the engine. Don't forget a couple of mags every 5/700 hours vacuum pump the same, so at 1600 hours could lose them before TBO. Will be a very close value call. Best of luck.
Re the 400 hrs remaining on the engine, is there something in the UK which makes this a compulsory thing? Everywhere else, engines can be run on condition quite happily, otherwise quite a lot of airplanes would be grounded.
My own O360 was run to 2600 hrs before I had it overhauled.
My own O360 was run to 2600 hrs before I had it overhauled.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Faversham
Posts: 283
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As long as the aircraft is in private use, engine can run "on condition" for as long as engineers agree it is good. Once you wish to hire out, or use commercially in any way then lifed limits kick in. My O-360A4M is officially lifed to 2000 hours or 12 years. But I've only done 700 hours in 8 years, and although I'm now flying more (about 120 hours p.a.) I expect the time limit to runout before the hours, and because it's private I'll continue "on condition" providing still good.
Lycoming have recently stated that TBOs can be extended by multiples of 200 hours, but this is dependant on very regular use (I think they quoted 40 hours per month - so probably only helps flying schools).
Lycoming have recently stated that TBOs can be extended by multiples of 200 hours, but this is dependant on very regular use (I think they quoted 40 hours per month - so probably only helps flying schools).
My own bias, but damned if I know why anyone would want a TB10. For the Hp they have they're slow. And they're uncomfortable with unpleasant ergonomics, cockpit fit and control harmony.
Why not get a C172 Cutlass? Or a C182? Or even Piper's equivalents (as much as I prefer Cessna's single engine offerings. Curiously, I prefer Piper's cabin twins over Cessna's). Or a 33 Bonanza?
Why not get a C172 Cutlass? Or a C182? Or even Piper's equivalents (as much as I prefer Cessna's single engine offerings. Curiously, I prefer Piper's cabin twins over Cessna's). Or a 33 Bonanza?
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: UK / FIN
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My own bias, but damned if I know why anyone would want a TB10. For the Hp they have they're slow. And they're uncomfortable with unpleasant ergonomics, cockpit fit and control harmony.
Why not get a C172 Cutlass? Or a C182? Or even Piper's equivalents (as much as I prefer Cessna's single engine offerings. Curiously, I prefer Piper's cabin twins over Cessna's). Or a 33 Bonanza?
Why not get a C172 Cutlass? Or a C182? Or even Piper's equivalents (as much as I prefer Cessna's single engine offerings. Curiously, I prefer Piper's cabin twins over Cessna's). Or a 33 Bonanza?
