Buying a Socata TB10 and operating costs..
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Buying a Socata TB10 and operating costs..
Hello,
A group of us (very good friends and pilots) mixture of PPL and CPL have got together and evaluated trying to purchase a GA Aircraft - which will suit some of us for GA, others for hours building/recreational flying and trips further afield to Europe such as San Sebatian, Cannes, Monaco etc without being restricted to Club Aircraft.
We would split the cost of ownership of the aircraft between us 4 and have already cut our teeth into C152, Piper PA28, C172, Mooney etc and have potentially shortlisted a TB10 as a purchase.
Renting a club aircraft does not give us the flexibility at the moment so this opens up the opportunity to go flying when we want - albeit at a cost that we would absorb in Direct Operating Cost calculations.
TB10 seem to be making a come back in GA at the moment and it is IFR equipped (though with old avionics - Narco 800) but we aren't too fussed at the moment about upgrading these.
There is a fresh annual and ARC with the aircraft and I am trying to get an idea about Direct Operating Costs and general thoughts on the above aircraft?
I am just wondering how I can get the 'per hour flying cost' and what to rent out at?
The forecast to fly is approximately 100-150 hours a year between the 4 of us - BUT realistically, due to weather and no one hold an IR/IMC I do not think we will be hitting anywhere near these figures and it will likely be 50-70 hours a year.
At the end of it we will have an asset also and can think about adding 2 more members to the group -to a max 7 or 8 - including the 4 owners - to have set aside money for the engine fund, maintenance etc.
I have allowed approximately:
£2000 - 3000 for maintenance annually.
£2000 - Insurance (Named Pilot)
£1560 - Parking with a hard stand on grass inclusive of landing fees. At the moment I haven't found a hangar in an airfield around the London/South East area that is available.
£1800 - 8.33 conversion with 20% rebate from CAA
£385 - Pre-sales survey
£unknown - Logbook Audit.
Engine is on condition at the moment with approximately 400 hours left. Hence why we were thinking of adding some more members to have an engine fund - whether that is complete overhaul or top end etc.
I know a maintenance shop that specifically take care of these aircraft in and around Earls Cone/Thurrock area.
Aircraft weather cover - unknown £
Cutting additional keys for magnetos - unknown £
Fuel burn is approximately 40 litres per hour.
Any advice on the above appreciated?
Thank You.
Scoobster
A group of us (very good friends and pilots) mixture of PPL and CPL have got together and evaluated trying to purchase a GA Aircraft - which will suit some of us for GA, others for hours building/recreational flying and trips further afield to Europe such as San Sebatian, Cannes, Monaco etc without being restricted to Club Aircraft.
We would split the cost of ownership of the aircraft between us 4 and have already cut our teeth into C152, Piper PA28, C172, Mooney etc and have potentially shortlisted a TB10 as a purchase.
Renting a club aircraft does not give us the flexibility at the moment so this opens up the opportunity to go flying when we want - albeit at a cost that we would absorb in Direct Operating Cost calculations.
TB10 seem to be making a come back in GA at the moment and it is IFR equipped (though with old avionics - Narco 800) but we aren't too fussed at the moment about upgrading these.
There is a fresh annual and ARC with the aircraft and I am trying to get an idea about Direct Operating Costs and general thoughts on the above aircraft?
I am just wondering how I can get the 'per hour flying cost' and what to rent out at?
The forecast to fly is approximately 100-150 hours a year between the 4 of us - BUT realistically, due to weather and no one hold an IR/IMC I do not think we will be hitting anywhere near these figures and it will likely be 50-70 hours a year.
At the end of it we will have an asset also and can think about adding 2 more members to the group -to a max 7 or 8 - including the 4 owners - to have set aside money for the engine fund, maintenance etc.
I have allowed approximately:
£2000 - 3000 for maintenance annually.
£2000 - Insurance (Named Pilot)
£1560 - Parking with a hard stand on grass inclusive of landing fees. At the moment I haven't found a hangar in an airfield around the London/South East area that is available.
£1800 - 8.33 conversion with 20% rebate from CAA
£385 - Pre-sales survey
£unknown - Logbook Audit.
Engine is on condition at the moment with approximately 400 hours left. Hence why we were thinking of adding some more members to have an engine fund - whether that is complete overhaul or top end etc.
I know a maintenance shop that specifically take care of these aircraft in and around Earls Cone/Thurrock area.
Aircraft weather cover - unknown £
Cutting additional keys for magnetos - unknown £
Fuel burn is approximately 40 litres per hour.
Any advice on the above appreciated?
Thank You.
Scoobster
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Impressive you can find a parking spot for that price - where are you based?
Talk to the maintenance organisation that you are hoping to get all your maintenance done at. You should get them to do the logbook audit as well as the pre-purchase inspection and get them to setup a program with estimated costs.
There are many ways to do this, but I would be inclined to have all the yearly costs such as annual, 6month check, parking, part of the engine fund, insurance...etc... As a total divided by all the members, this way you are sure that even if she doesn't fly a single hour, there is enough money in the bank to keep her running.
Then for the hourly, 50hour check cost divided by 50 + oil + fuel (upper cruise) + engine fund + prop fund + incidental maintenance.
Then that way you always remain in positive in your account, and fingers crossed keep an aeroplane running!
Talk to the maintenance organisation that you are hoping to get all your maintenance done at. You should get them to do the logbook audit as well as the pre-purchase inspection and get them to setup a program with estimated costs.
There are many ways to do this, but I would be inclined to have all the yearly costs such as annual, 6month check, parking, part of the engine fund, insurance...etc... As a total divided by all the members, this way you are sure that even if she doesn't fly a single hour, there is enough money in the bank to keep her running.
Then for the hourly, 50hour check cost divided by 50 + oil + fuel (upper cruise) + engine fund + prop fund + incidental maintenance.
Then that way you always remain in positive in your account, and fingers crossed keep an aeroplane running!
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Rule of thumbs in that class could be somewhere around £100 per flight hour fixed costs plus £100 per hour variable costs at 150 flight hours per years or £30,000 totals per year at half-half. The £15,000 fixed you have almost anyways, one way or another, flying only 50 hours per year would be £5,000 variable and totals £20,000 at only 50 flight hours, or £400 per hour. I would treat that as "Don't" while the £200 at 150 hours would be my "Do".
The biggest issues will be the birds shape upon acquisition and on the same level, the blindness of your buddies. Most such groups fail on reality view of its members - No you don't need no stinky golden blinkyblinky ...
The biggest issues will be the birds shape upon acquisition and on the same level, the blindness of your buddies. Most such groups fail on reality view of its members - No you don't need no stinky golden blinkyblinky ...
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I am based in Essex so have called the airfields near by.. the best 2 are Daymns Hall at £1596 and Denham (where another potential owner would be based) at £1500 per annum.
So are you saying tot up all the yearly costs and divide it by 4?
Take the 'operating cost' for 50 hour check and 150 hour check (in between annual)- divided by 50?
Would this give us a potential rental figure?
Also as 'owners' - do the 'owners' per say also pay the monthly and hourly rental?? or pay part of it?
I am just thinking that if we own a part of the plane - should we put money aside for the operating also?
Thanks
So are you saying tot up all the yearly costs and divide it by 4?
Take the 'operating cost' for 50 hour check and 150 hour check (in between annual)- divided by 50?
Would this give us a potential rental figure?
Also as 'owners' - do the 'owners' per say also pay the monthly and hourly rental?? or pay part of it?
I am just thinking that if we own a part of the plane - should we put money aside for the operating also?
Thanks
Last edited by Scoobster; 29th Oct 2017 at 16:47.
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Scoobster
Speak too or go and see the guys at Cavendish Aviation, Earls Colne for all your TB 10 needs , costs etc., they are most helpful and some of the nicest people in the business.
Have you looked at North Weald (EGSX) as a base.?
G-ANPK
Speak too or go and see the guys at Cavendish Aviation, Earls Colne for all your TB 10 needs , costs etc., they are most helpful and some of the nicest people in the business.
Have you looked at North Weald (EGSX) as a base.?
G-ANPK
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You have not included purchase finance costs.
Even if you chip in equal amounts each and pay cash you still have the cost of lost interest on the amount invested. What could that money have earned you invested elsewhere ?.
Even if you chip in equal amounts each and pay cash you still have the cost of lost interest on the amount invested. What could that money have earned you invested elsewhere ?.
Make sure you check the performance figures for a field such as Damyns Hall - 650m grass runway doesn't suit a fully loaded TB10 with only 180hp to call on. You might find you are restricted in take-off performance and only able to lift less than a full load.....
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Its circa 1980 with good compression figures and ready to fly away. We are at the due diligence stage at the moment so not rushing into this until I have accounted for all the costs that we are likely to incur.
I will be evolving my spreadsheet to take account of runway length, fire services, easy access to maintenance etc.
Cost of parking and Hangarage will be one element of this.
One point of contention I can see is should owners be putting the circa £100 monthly and £120... after having put the equity in??
I can see some resistance to this.. and I personally say No.. but as you say I might be looking at this the wrong way.
I would propose adding 4 more members to absorb the ops costs..?
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You definitely need to be putting cash in every time you fly, because that way you fund maintenance as it arrives, and whilst it isn't in your spreadsheet so far, you need to add a little extra to build an engine fund. With only 400 hours left, you'll need a new one or zero timing in 4 years or less (presumes stays healthy), and you'll need to budget at least £20,000 for that. Over 400 hours, the necessary premium would be very high hourly costs. So it may be that is when you need new group members to buy in for the new engine - but it's likely you will need to spend the cash up front before you can attract them! But get into the habit of contributing the extra to the engine fund from the start. You should budget at least £10 per hour if not more. Then when your new engine reaches 2000 hours, you have at least £20k in reserve.
On airfield choice, if you are buying from Earls Colne, and they have TB maintenance there, it would seem a good choice, with hard runway that's easily long enough, and nice people there!
Drifting slightly, there is a TB languishing at Rochester at present. It hasn't moved for year, so would probably be for sale at a reasonable price, but would need lots of TLC, but maybe you could do it up with just what you want, paint, radios etc.........just a thought. Engine life remaining is always very important. Good luck.
On airfield choice, if you are buying from Earls Colne, and they have TB maintenance there, it would seem a good choice, with hard runway that's easily long enough, and nice people there!
Drifting slightly, there is a TB languishing at Rochester at present. It hasn't moved for year, so would probably be for sale at a reasonable price, but would need lots of TLC, but maybe you could do it up with just what you want, paint, radios etc.........just a thought. Engine life remaining is always very important. Good luck.
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Annual maintenance £2-£3000 on a TB10! I think your costing are way under what the real world will turn out to be and when your maintenance organisation get their claws into it. I think you need to be budgeting at least twice that amount.
Also what will happen when the engine needs a £30k rebuild in a 400hours time. How will the group fund fund it?
Also what will happen when the engine needs a £30k rebuild in a 400hours time. How will the group fund fund it?
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As mentioned, get someone look at it from maintenance view and even better if that "someone" is familiar with TB:s. They are littlebit different than regular C:s and P:s. Nice aircraft but needs slight "french" thinking to work with. 
Like all ageing GA aircrafts, these suffers corrosion as well. Maybe not issue, but worth to check to avoid nasty and costly surprices.
Think you know, but, engine with 400hrs left may start burn some money well before hours are gone. If there is history for some repairs, it may be good runner to the final end but if nothing major is done you may budget some cylinder repairs at least.
Like all ageing GA aircrafts, these suffers corrosion as well. Maybe not issue, but worth to check to avoid nasty and costly surprices.
Think you know, but, engine with 400hrs left may start burn some money well before hours are gone. If there is history for some repairs, it may be good runner to the final end but if nothing major is done you may budget some cylinder repairs at least.
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Annual maintenance £2-£3000 on a TB10! I think your costing are way under what the real world will turn out to be and when your maintenance organisation get their claws into it. I think you need to be budgeting at least twice that amount.
Also what will happen when the engine needs a £30k rebuild in a 400hours time. How will the group fund fund it?
Also what will happen when the engine needs a £30k rebuild in a 400hours time. How will the group fund fund it?
We are 'first timers' when it comes to buying an aircraft and are quickly finding that we are having to do a lot of fact finding and this wonderful forum allows me to get the thoughts of aviators or owner operators who have been there before and advice which I would value.
Scoobster
As mentioned, get someone look at it from maintenance view and even better if that "someone" is familiar with TB:s. They are little bit different than regular C:s and P:s. Nice aircraft but needs slight "French" thinking to work with.
Like all ageing GA aircraft, these suffers corrosion as well. Maybe not issue, but worth to check to avoid nasty and costly surprises.
Think you know, but, engine with 400hrs left may start burn some money well before hours are gone. If there is history for some repairs, it may be good runner to the final end but if nothing major is done you may budget some cylinder repairs at least.
Like all ageing GA aircraft, these suffers corrosion as well. Maybe not issue, but worth to check to avoid nasty and costly surprises.
Think you know, but, engine with 400hrs left may start burn some money well before hours are gone. If there is history for some repairs, it may be good runner to the final end but if nothing major is done you may budget some cylinder repairs at least.
1) Corrosion Report
2) Logbook Audit
3) Pre-sales Inspection
4) Full Disclosure of history and maintenance
I am wary of the parts not being readily sourced for these aircraft but the people over at Earls Colne have assured me that this is not a big issue and the hours on the engine are good enough - but accept that 400 hours would 'burn' through quite quickly - so am mindful of this!
Scoobster
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I am wary of the parts not being readily sourced for these aircraft but the people over at Earls Colne have assured me that this is not a big issue and the hours on the engine are good enough - but accept that 400 hours would 'burn' through quite quickly - so am mindful of this!
Scoobster
You can look overseas as well, there is plenty of parts supplier for our North American friends with their TB:s.
One customer bought new windscreen from USA manufacturer for his TB, cannot recall was it due to pricing or something to do with littlebit thicker screen. Or both.
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Damyns Hall is actually closer to 800m long on runway 21/03 (no matter what they say in the charts). 21 is relatively clear too. There is however a gradient down 21 (and up 03). If you were fully loaded and the wind favoured 03 for departure by more than around 5kts (if below takeoff 21 anyway) but less than around 15kts, you wouldn't be able to safely takeoff (well you'll get airborne, probably, but the big pylons and cables on the extended centreline might not greet you softly... And I don't think you'd out-climb them fully loaded in a TB10. Runway 14/32 wouldn't work for a TB10 as it is a bit short - fine for landing, but too short for takeoff (and is very bumpy at the moment). Otherwise, there isn't much of an issue. Thurrock for maintenance is only a 5min flight (very good reputation there), AVGAS is available, but not all day every day, so might need a bit of fore-planning; not possible to land at night, nice bunch of people and during the summer the cafe (or weekends all year) is pretty good. Also - no landing fees which is pretty awesome! [things to bear in mind for your choosing].
Yes, I would recommend you put all the static costs together and divide them by the number of people who have equal shares, and pay them either monthly or annually into the plane's bank account. Then charge yourselves the variable costs as outlined per hour. If there are 4, I'd hazard a guess at £220pm (ish) + £100ph wet. In that case - if she doesn't fly, or some people in the group fly less than others, its still fair as they own part of the plane, and these static costs don't change whether or not the planes are used. Also remember that planes like to be flown, not left to rot, so if someone pays £200+pm, they'd want to get their worth out of it!
Don't estimate the number of hours you think she will fly to base your costs on as if she flew less hours than anticipated (which is quite common) you'd be left out of pocket...
If you wanted to rent it out as well though, ie: to allow yourself to top up the account, and help pay for that £25k overhaul (well might be more, might be less... you never know!) you'd probably want a "membership fee" of something reasonable like most clubs, say £200pa and then charge £180ph wet or something like that - but you might not get many takers, and would ruin your availability probably!
Anyway - things to consider...!
Yes, I would recommend you put all the static costs together and divide them by the number of people who have equal shares, and pay them either monthly or annually into the plane's bank account. Then charge yourselves the variable costs as outlined per hour. If there are 4, I'd hazard a guess at £220pm (ish) + £100ph wet. In that case - if she doesn't fly, or some people in the group fly less than others, its still fair as they own part of the plane, and these static costs don't change whether or not the planes are used. Also remember that planes like to be flown, not left to rot, so if someone pays £200+pm, they'd want to get their worth out of it!
Don't estimate the number of hours you think she will fly to base your costs on as if she flew less hours than anticipated (which is quite common) you'd be left out of pocket...
If you wanted to rent it out as well though, ie: to allow yourself to top up the account, and help pay for that £25k overhaul (well might be more, might be less... you never know!) you'd probably want a "membership fee" of something reasonable like most clubs, say £200pa and then charge £180ph wet or something like that - but you might not get many takers, and would ruin your availability probably!
Anyway - things to consider...!
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Here is some kind of list SBs, bear in mind it is not official but might give some guidance for starter. (must be registered on user group)
Last edited by Corrosion; 29th Oct 2017 at 21:46.
EASA Safety Publications Tool, advanced search.
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I think we have to be realistic and not try and do too many things at once. We are first time plane buyers so renting out to others at the moment - I don't think that will be a runner.
Realistically although Damyns Hall is attractive £133 per month inc VAT and £80 pa to join the Tiger Moth Club - I am leaning away from it due to AVGAS on request and a bit further across town we have Earls Cone with a Tarmac Runway and Grass and Cavendish Aviation that are a maintenance shop I was thinking of.
Earls Cone is £116 per month plus £132 for a landing card per annum and 1 landing a day free.. but £5.50 per landing thereafter which seems weird to me but anyway it could be the norm like other airfields.. I don't pay landing fees at my current home base so perhaps something I am not used to.
Denham is £130 a month plus £90 for landing card per annum, but this is a bit further away for at least 3 of us to get to.
£220 a month might be a bit steep or some of the guys as they may raise a point of contention that similar groups (I have only been in 1) have been around £120 a month or £65 a month (that some others are used to).. and operating per tacho have been at £130.60 an hour or £105- 125 an hou (North Weald) but these are more and longer established groups, so the aim wouldn't be to 'compete' but to us the aircraft ourselves and be able to maintain it according to the schedule and TBO etc.
I guess we have to be realistic and practical and try and be economical at the same time..
I am not going to lie.. the overhaul and cost of this does concern me and this is all new to me so still filling in some gaps so we don't have to 'cash call'! I haven't worked all the maths out yet.. but the penny will drop soon
In terms of the 'bank account' - am I correct in saying you have to run a group like a LTD company or put the money into a segregated bank account which is on a personal name? The only way I can think of with the 'Plane having a bank account' is for a LTD company to be registered and the name of the group serves as the bank account name and separate number?
This eliminates any temptation by any member to use the money for personal use!
Scoobster
Yes, I would recommend you put all the static costs together and divide them by the number of people who have equal shares, and pay them either monthly or annually into the plane's bank account. Then charge yourselves the variable costs as outlined per hour. If there are 4, I'd hazard a guess at £220pm (ish) + £100ph wet. In that case - if she doesn't fly, or some people in the group fly less than others, its still fair as they own part of the plane, and these static costs don't change whether or not the planes are used. Also remember that planes like to be flown, not left to rot, so if someone pays £200+pm, they'd want to get their worth out of it!
Don't estimate the number of hours you think she will fly to base your costs on as if she flew less hours than anticipated (which is quite common) you'd be left out of pocket...
If you wanted to rent it out as well though, ie: to allow yourself to top up the account, and help pay for that £25k overhaul (well might be more, might be less... you never know!) you'd probably want a "membership fee" of something reasonable like most clubs, say £200pa and then charge £180ph wet or something like that - but you might not get many takers, and would ruin your availability probably!
Anyway - things to consider...!
Realistically although Damyns Hall is attractive £133 per month inc VAT and £80 pa to join the Tiger Moth Club - I am leaning away from it due to AVGAS on request and a bit further across town we have Earls Cone with a Tarmac Runway and Grass and Cavendish Aviation that are a maintenance shop I was thinking of.
Earls Cone is £116 per month plus £132 for a landing card per annum and 1 landing a day free.. but £5.50 per landing thereafter which seems weird to me but anyway it could be the norm like other airfields.. I don't pay landing fees at my current home base so perhaps something I am not used to.
Denham is £130 a month plus £90 for landing card per annum, but this is a bit further away for at least 3 of us to get to.
£220 a month might be a bit steep or some of the guys as they may raise a point of contention that similar groups (I have only been in 1) have been around £120 a month or £65 a month (that some others are used to).. and operating per tacho have been at £130.60 an hour or £105- 125 an hou (North Weald) but these are more and longer established groups, so the aim wouldn't be to 'compete' but to us the aircraft ourselves and be able to maintain it according to the schedule and TBO etc.
I guess we have to be realistic and practical and try and be economical at the same time..
I am not going to lie.. the overhaul and cost of this does concern me and this is all new to me so still filling in some gaps so we don't have to 'cash call'! I haven't worked all the maths out yet.. but the penny will drop soon
In terms of the 'bank account' - am I correct in saying you have to run a group like a LTD company or put the money into a segregated bank account which is on a personal name? The only way I can think of with the 'Plane having a bank account' is for a LTD company to be registered and the name of the group serves as the bank account name and separate number?
This eliminates any temptation by any member to use the money for personal use!
Scoobster
Yes, I would recommend you put all the static costs together and divide them by the number of people who have equal shares, and pay them either monthly or annually into the plane's bank account. Then charge yourselves the variable costs as outlined per hour. If there are 4, I'd hazard a guess at £220pm (ish) + £100ph wet. In that case - if she doesn't fly, or some people in the group fly less than others, its still fair as they own part of the plane, and these static costs don't change whether or not the planes are used. Also remember that planes like to be flown, not left to rot, so if someone pays £200+pm, they'd want to get their worth out of it!
Don't estimate the number of hours you think she will fly to base your costs on as if she flew less hours than anticipated (which is quite common) you'd be left out of pocket...
If you wanted to rent it out as well though, ie: to allow yourself to top up the account, and help pay for that £25k overhaul (well might be more, might be less... you never know!) you'd probably want a "membership fee" of something reasonable like most clubs, say £200pa and then charge £180ph wet or something like that - but you might not get many takers, and would ruin your availability probably!
Anyway - things to consider...!