Requirements for logging P1 hours on a plane that is not your usual school?

[Scoobster]

This might seem a straight forward answer but I haven't made the link in my brain yet about any relevance to CAA Regulations.

A number of pilot friends fly out of a group in a different airfield and qualified on C152/C172 etc. Another airfield in the vicinity also operate the same aircraft.

Question:

Can anyone who is part of a different group/school walk into another school and rent their aircraft..and still log the P1 hours..if the member who is part of the active membership of the school is the one who hires the aircraft?

So 2 people - 1 who is member and 1 who isn't.

My confusion is around:

1) Insurance - if not a member at another school - said school/group/club can say visiting pilot/friend is not insured on 'their fleet' - but can member who is insured 'hire' the plane and fly with friend and the P1 hours get split between legs with friend/visiting pilot?

Link between Insurance and P1 logging time if any?

Obviously this would be stupidity - as not insured but I'm confused as to why they cant hire the same make model etc. (as they have flown) and log the P1 hours - the difference is just that its a different airfield?

2) If not a member of said school - where does this leave the Tech Log?
eg if Scoobster takes plane from school - name on tech log is Scoobster's.

If friend flies a leg - leg cannot be verified on tech log as friend is not part of the same school? If CAA enquiries then there is a mismatch.

Just wondered if I have really got myself in a twist can't find any clear guidance from anyone I speak to.

Cheers,
Scoobster

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What the school does is up to them. In most cases I would expect them to require that anyone flying the aircraft is a club member and has passed a check ride, and some will have rules that the aircraft can only be flown from the left hand seat or whatever.

Having said which a club might not have a rule forbidding the hirer from letting a passenger have a go. The passenger cannot, of course, log anything.

[Scoobster]

I understand that part about the school but surely this is purely an internal thing- I just don't understand from a regulatory perspective what stops a person from being P1?

Is it the insurance (if so does the CAA view the flight as being not legal?), not being able to put their name on the tech log etc..?

Both aircraft are the same after all.!

It would be no different to someone who owns their own plane say a C152 letting a friend fly who also holds the same license? He would still be able to log P1... as far as I know..

[Parson]

In answer to your question, I would say no. For the reasons Gertrude states.

HOWEVER - let's say a pilot qualified on the aircraft (from other club/group) was actually flying/taxying the aircraft (even from the RHS) and there was an accident. In that instance I would imagine that the CAA would treat that pilot as the commander as far as any action being taken was concerned. Insurances and club member responsibility et al would be a separate issue. Would it then follow that that pilot should be logging P1?! A right can of worms and not sure I know the answer......

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by Scoobster

I understand that part about the school but surely this is purely an internal thing- I just don't understand from a regulatory perspective what stops a person from being P1?

Sorry, I don't get you. Are you asking:

"What happens if I rent an aeroplane under a contract which says person A is P1 and then person B tries to act as P1?"

I would respectfully submit that this is a question that doesn't need answering, because it shouldn't have been asked.

[Scoobster]

Sorry if I am not clear..Perhaps I am confused.. I'll try to keep it simplified scenario

You have 2 people. Both are license holders. Both learned at different schools and are members of different group shares/schools.

You want to go to some land far away and say i.e. fly a leg each to cost share. Only one is a member of the school. The membership here I am presuming is paid for insurance purposes, upkeep of facilities etc.

In the view of the CAA because only 1 person is 'insured' are they the only party who can LAWFULLY act as P1? or can both be P1 operating different legs from the LHS after a landing?

I am not trying to break rules here but just trying to be educated and get my head arouby: - Understanding the link between whether two "qualified pilots" can operate as P1 from one school or if both need to be 'insured' members?

I don't get the part about the contract - the tech log is all that is filled in apart from a logbook check, medical check and a license check.

What is the link between insurance, tech log and P1?

Scoobster

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You want to go to some land far away and say i.e. fly a leg each to cost share. Only one is a member of the school. The membership here I am presuming is paid for insurance purposes, upkeep of facilities etc.

In real life they will both have to be members of the school, because the school won't hire you the aircraft on any other conditions. So. two people who are members of the same school/club, fly one leg each of a landaway, change seats before coming back if that's the club rules, each logs their leg as P1.

[pulse1]

Scoobster,

A lot of flying regulation is carried out by insurance companies. When I started gliding many years ago, anyone could fly a glider in the UK provided they had third party insurance. You actually couldn't get this insurance unless you satisfied the sensible requirements laid down by the BGA.

Similarly, anyone with a current SEP rating can legally fly something like a C152 provided they have third party insurance. It is the conditions laid down by the insurance company which dictates what you can and cannot do. Every club I have ever belonged to insists that, to fly their aircraft, you have to be a club member and have signed the Flying Order Book.

For Group owned aircraft it is again the insurance which dictates what you can do. My group insurance has named pilots or instructors only but, if I change our insurance to, say, Visicover, they give the same cover for any pilot. In that case it would appear that you could allow another current SEP to log P1 time. I sometimes get asked to take up aspiring airline pilots who are desperately trying to keep current while they look for that first job. I have to point out that, while I am very happy to take them up, they cannot log any of the time as P1.

[foxmoth]

Regulatory there is no problem with this and legally you could do this on any SEP that your licence covers with no requirement for a check out anyway but as pointed out the school you are hiring from may well not be happy and you may not be insured, speak to the school and ask them!

[hegemon88]

Aircraft owner/operator has a say

I can't find the reference at the moment but isn't it the case that the aircraft owner/operator "designates" the Pilot in Command?

From that it would follow that you can have all licences and ratings in the world but unless the aircraft owner/operator agrees for you to be PIC, you cannot be PIC? And I mean, legally.

And from that it would follow that to be PIC you have to abide by all the rules laid down by the owner/operator/flying club as otherwise they won't "agree" for you to act as PIC. The rules will normally include being a club member, having been checked out and with the currency limits.

What are you up to, Scoobster?




/h88

[Heston]

Indeed.
It really is a case of you overthinking it Scoobster.
Imagine if it was a car that you own. Let's say your son is a named driver. He goes off for the day with a mate. The mate has an appropriate licence and your son lets him drive.
Are you happy? No
Is the mate insured? No.
Same with aeroplanes.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Originally Posted by Heston

It really is a case of you overthinking it Scoobster.

I think someone might be trying to save a few quid. But it won't work - there really is no alternative but to pay for a membership and pay for a check ride.

[ChickenHouse]

I am a bit confused on the term school? If we talk flight school, the respective answer would be found in the schools certified operations handbook, or?

[PA28181]

The question really shouldn't have been asked.

Keep it simple.

If as a pilot you stole an aeroplane, you would still be P1 as the law requires, and irrespective of any other factors like insurance, these and other relating factors will be the real concern. But STILL log P1 as required by law.....

[S-Works]

What are you up to, Scoobster?

Trying to scrabble for P1 time without having to jump through the hoops required of the owner/operator of the aircraft in terms of paying club membership and having a checkout is what I suspect..........

If accumulating P1 time is so desperate an objective for you, why don't you just parker pen it?

[Scoobster]

Originally Posted by bose-x

Trying to scrabble for P1 time without having to jump through the hoops required of the owner/operator of the aircraft in terms of paying club membership and having a checkout is what I suspect..........

If accumulating P1 time is so desperate an objective for you, why don't you just parker pen it?

I find that quite harsh particulay the use of the word desperation.I dont understand what you mean by Parker Pen it?? A term I am not familiar with perhaps.

If you mean why not just add it in.. well thats illegal and a falsification of records!

However, I accept that thought processes cannot be gleaned from a black and white posting on a thread.

If I was up to something why would I come on a forum asking about any regulatory impact or other.

I would just go out and do what I want! Probably end up without a license but I sure as heck wouldn't bother about seeking approval or trying to obtain factual information from a forum or google!

Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat

I think someone might be trying to save a few quid. But it won't work - there really is no alternative but to pay for a membership and pay for a check ride.

I am a fully fledged PAID member with recurring renewal of a flying school/club (I still call them schools) as I went through a PPL with them. I am already checked out on different Aircraft and have ALWAYS AND STILL CONTINUE TO PAY my dues for instructors, checkouts etc or wherever required. This should always be the case with anyone as Instructors and the like work hard to impart knowledge..

I just find conflicting information and navigating the texts and different regulatory requirements somewhat confusing sometimes and hence need to see some of the detail with the 'bigger picture'. Just the way my mind works sometimes..

For example, someone at the school/club once told me that we cant fly aircraft into an unlicensed field (think somewhere like North Weald) as license holders. I asked why and they said its to do with 'Category of Fire and Rescue and its a regulatory requirement' that we need to comply with.. not content with this I asked someone else and got a different response!

It transpired that the school didnt want their aircraft going there because its a shortish flight and as any business would.. want to maximise the rental return on aircraft..and were feeding duff information to students or renters!

I can accept that I shouldn't ask questions but if I cant glean information from people who may be exercising the previleges of their license longer than I have than I dont see the point in a forum or Google!

Appreciate I may have overthought it though..

Cogs are turning!

Scoobster

[PA28181]

Bottom line is. Your a member of a flying club and hire an aicraft.

You take a mate along who is also a pilot but not a fellow member of club.

You fly the a leg out as P1 and land. Your mate fly's back as P1 to base.

You now have to pay for the flight.

1: Do you pay for whole flight (of course you should, so know one knows what your doing)

2: Then get your mate to cough up the ready's for his flight.

3:Now its gets dodgy. You have to show your entire flight as P1 to your club.

but you and your mate have only logged and can only log the relevant P1 flight times to keep "legal" in your log books.

4: All is well until that time when ?

[Scoobster]

Originally Posted by PA28181

Bottom line is. Your a member of a flying club and hire an aicraft.

You take a mate along who is also a pilot but not a fellow member of club.

You fly the a leg out as P1 and land. Your mate fly's back as P1 to base.

You now have to pay for the flight.

1: Do you pay for whole flight (of course you should, so know one knows what your doing)

2: Then get your mate to cough up the ready's for his flight.

3:Now its gets dodgy. You have to show your entire flight as P1 to your club.

but you and your mate have only logged and can only log the relevant P1 flight times to keep "legal" in your log books.

4: All is well until that time when ?

Until there is an inquiry by the CAA for a near miss or accident or incident??

Along those lines?

[Camargue]

Originally Posted by Scoobster

Until there is an inquiry by the CAA for a near miss or accident or incident??

Along those lines?

Well, my understanding is you can put what you like in your logbook as long as you are not claiming the hours towards re-validation.

so if you say have 20 bona fide hours in your 2nd year, its irrelevant if you add another....

as mentioned though its not a question of legality from a caa perspective but one of insurance. i had a friend owned his own plane. If he wanted to let someone else fly it he just informed his insurers. If they were happy said pilot had the requisite experience all was fine

[ETOPS]

Scoobster

Purely in the interest of widening your "aviation" knowledge....


The world famous Parker Pen company produced a fountain pen called the P-51.



There is also a WW2 fighter called the P-51 Mustang - a fraudster from times past allegedly inflated his yearly hours by simply writing in P-51 flights that never took place

Hence the phrase..........