Flight Level Clearance - vs Feet - French ATC
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Flight Level Clearance - vs Feet - French ATC
This might be a silly question or one where I have confused myself.. but..
I was flying back from France over the weekend.. Paris Information came on and asked ' G-XXX Confirm your expected trajectory and heading after x'.
To which I replied ' Heading xxx after leaving waypoint x and climbing to Flight Level 50'
In my head - I was expecting to climb to 5000 feet. Above 3000 being the T'Level -presumably.
Controller: Approved to 5000 on 1021.
Me: Approved to FL50. Gxxx
Controller: 'G-C' approved to 5000 on 1021.
Me: Approved to FL50.
Controller ' Gxxx'- NEGATIVE.. not Flight Level.. Approved to FIFE TOUSAND FEET on QNH 1021. Report at xxx.
At the same time, I heard another similar aircraft saying 'Request FL65' and he was approved to Flight Level 65.
I'm just confused as to why I could not set 1013 and if 5000 ft is enough to constitute a FL.. Though I don't know what the transition level was that day.
Trying to figure out what I did wrong
P.S I know the difference between the QNH/SPS/Feet/FL etc - just wondered why my interpretation of asking for a FL was denied or incorrect? Its bugging me like heck..
Scoobster
I was flying back from France over the weekend.. Paris Information came on and asked ' G-XXX Confirm your expected trajectory and heading after x'.
To which I replied ' Heading xxx after leaving waypoint x and climbing to Flight Level 50'
In my head - I was expecting to climb to 5000 feet. Above 3000 being the T'Level -presumably.
Controller: Approved to 5000 on 1021.
Me: Approved to FL50. Gxxx
Controller: 'G-C' approved to 5000 on 1021.
Me: Approved to FL50.
Controller ' Gxxx'- NEGATIVE.. not Flight Level.. Approved to FIFE TOUSAND FEET on QNH 1021. Report at xxx.
At the same time, I heard another similar aircraft saying 'Request FL65' and he was approved to Flight Level 65.
I'm just confused as to why I could not set 1013 and if 5000 ft is enough to constitute a FL.. Though I don't know what the transition level was that day.
Trying to figure out what I did wrong
P.S I know the difference between the QNH/SPS/Feet/FL etc - just wondered why my interpretation of asking for a FL was denied or incorrect? Its bugging me like heck..
Scoobster
Last edited by Scoobster; 21st Aug 2017 at 12:11.
One of the embuggerances of much long distance flying is that transition levels seem to be treated as state secrets. However, clearly in that neck of thr woods it is above 5000ft, and presumably below 6500. In general it is easiest to be lazy and assume that the controller knows where it is and take your queue from the clearances you are given. The units used on charts to define top and bottom of CAS can also be a useful clue.
G
G
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Im sorry but I still don't get it..
My preflight planning indicated that in the absence of a published Transition Altitude (which I couldn't find from LFRK).. it was stated to use 3000'..
It was Deauville not Paris my apologies.
The instructions were to 'Climb initially to 2500 and contact Deauville'.
I had the French,Belgium and Lux chart 1:250k in front of me.. The base of the CAS started at 2500 on departure from LFRK after which I was told to contact Deauville.
Im still a tad confused as to what chart or reference I may have missed or where I slipped up..
Scoobster
My preflight planning indicated that in the absence of a published Transition Altitude (which I couldn't find from LFRK).. it was stated to use 3000'..
It was Deauville not Paris my apologies.
The instructions were to 'Climb initially to 2500 and contact Deauville'.
I had the French,Belgium and Lux chart 1:250k in front of me.. The base of the CAS started at 2500 on departure from LFRK after which I was told to contact Deauville.
Im still a tad confused as to what chart or reference I may have missed or where I slipped up..
Scoobster
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A transition altitude is set for every Terminal Control Area (TMA). The transition altitude is published on the IACs of aerodromes located within the TMA limits as also on the IACs of aerodromes located below the TMA when the minimum holding altitude is above the TMA base. The transition altitude is also published on the chart (scale 1:1,000,000) issued from the Aeronautical Information Service, for VFR flights, when the transition altitude value is different from 5000 feet. The transition altitude is never less than 450 m (1500 ft) above the aerodrome.
(French AIP ENR 1.7.2.2)
So when there's no specific transition altitude on your chart, you can assume that the TA is 5000 feet. Who told you 3000?
(French AIP ENR 1.7.2.2)
So when there's no specific transition altitude on your chart, you can assume that the TA is 5000 feet. Who told you 3000?
There are some unofficial English guides to flying in France that give the default TA as 3000 feet. I suspect these guides are old and have not been updated.
That having been said, there is a current NOTAM concerning activation of the Deauville TMA which shows a lower level of FL25. But the permanent chart publishes 2500 feet for the same airspace.
That having been said, there is a current NOTAM concerning activation of the Deauville TMA which shows a lower level of FL25. But the permanent chart publishes 2500 feet for the same airspace.
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There are some unofficial English guides to flying in France that give the default TA as 3000 feet. I suspect these guides are old and have not been updated.
That having been said, there is a current NOTAM concerning the Deauville TMA which shows a lower level of FL25. But the permanent chart publishes 2500 feet for the same airspace.
That having been said, there is a current NOTAM concerning the Deauville TMA which shows a lower level of FL25. But the permanent chart publishes 2500 feet for the same airspace.
I did all the preflight and planning thoroughly and also put a call in to the ATSU to get the TA which was relayed as 3000. The guides online also showed 3000 as did confirmation with an instructor who has been to said location before.
The flight was VFR and not IFR, but today looking at a SID shows the words TA 5000 in the top right.
The VAC has no markings for TA I believe but I will double check it again.
So what is one supposed to go by if not IFR rated and I couldn't find the above in the when looking on SIA online.
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Controllers, especially those who manage VFR flights, know that the TA situation in Europe is confusing and will not get mad at you when you get it wrong the first time. As long as you let yourself be corrected by them on the first try. They hate having to repeat themselves.
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The default TA in controlled airspace in France is 5000 ft. In practice, this can extend to the area around and potentially below as well.
The French enforce the semi-circular rule far more strictly than the UK, so 4500ft or FL55 would have been appropriate, depending on heading. I am surprised that the controller did not insist.
The French enforce the semi-circular rule far more strictly than the UK, so 4500ft or FL55 would have been appropriate, depending on heading. I am surprised that the controller did not insist.
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Quite simple, the Transition Altitude is what the controller tells you it is, full stop
You cannot have the slightest idea what is going on at the controllers desk, so first - take what they give you! If there are F16s scud running FL05 you cannot imagine. You may question twice, what you did, and that if fine, but they are the authority. Even further, if they give you 5.000ft on QNH 1020 and your local pressure level is more 950 - go for the 1020 and ask for confirmation, but do not think on your own with respect to such.
TA is difficult in Europe and often also related to weather conditions, as you can easily get from listening to ATIS of several stations. When under control you may even get a different TA and QNH dependent whether you fly local or x-country, so don't even rely on listening to what others got! Take you setting from traffic control.
You cannot have the slightest idea what is going on at the controllers desk, so first - take what they give you! If there are F16s scud running FL05 you cannot imagine. You may question twice, what you did, and that if fine, but they are the authority. Even further, if they give you 5.000ft on QNH 1020 and your local pressure level is more 950 - go for the 1020 and ask for confirmation, but do not think on your own with respect to such.
TA is difficult in Europe and often also related to weather conditions, as you can easily get from listening to ATIS of several stations. When under control you may even get a different TA and QNH dependent whether you fly local or x-country, so don't even rely on listening to what others got! Take you setting from traffic control.
TA is difficult in Europe and often also related to weather conditions, as you can easily get from listening to ATIS of several stations
TA is not a function of weather conditions, and rarely given on ATIS.
Even further, if they give you 5.000ft on QNH 1020 and your local pressure level is more 950 - go for the 1020
do not think on your own
G
Transition Altitude is a fixed value and published as such. It is Transition Level that is variable. In controlled airspace it is determined by ATC taking account of the sea level pressure of the day.
Scoobster, I can't help wondering if those people in France who told you the TA was 3000ft were thinking you were asking about the UK FIR value - after all they knew you were flying to England ?
Scoobster, I can't help wondering if those people in France who told you the TA was 3000ft were thinking you were asking about the UK FIR value - after all they knew you were flying to England ?
But the TA is rarely 3,000ft in the UK.
