JAA to EASA - Stuck between France and the UK
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JAA to EASA - Stuck between France and the UK
Hi All
I have a French issued PPL with an expired SEP rating. I've lived in Scotland for the past ten years and am finally back into a comfortable financial situation where I can start flying again.
I spoke to both the CAA and its French equivalent (DGAC) who confirmed the DGAC will need to convert my JAA license to EASA. I will need to renew my Class 2 medical here in the UK (as long as EASA compliant), do my SEP checkride here in the UK as well, then send all of that across to the DGAC.
My question is as follows: with a French issued EASA PPL (which will include the English language level 6 proficiency certification), will I be able to fly with no restrictions in the UK (i.e. as though it was a CAA issued license)? I understand the advantages of going through a European agency, however want to avoid any bad surprises.
Thanks!
I have a French issued PPL with an expired SEP rating. I've lived in Scotland for the past ten years and am finally back into a comfortable financial situation where I can start flying again.
I spoke to both the CAA and its French equivalent (DGAC) who confirmed the DGAC will need to convert my JAA license to EASA. I will need to renew my Class 2 medical here in the UK (as long as EASA compliant), do my SEP checkride here in the UK as well, then send all of that across to the DGAC.
My question is as follows: with a French issued EASA PPL (which will include the English language level 6 proficiency certification), will I be able to fly with no restrictions in the UK (i.e. as though it was a CAA issued license)? I understand the advantages of going through a European agency, however want to avoid any bad surprises.
Thanks!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The short version is YES, you can use any EASA license to fly any EASA registered aircraft (within the limitations of the license, obviously).
The devil is in the details though.
Under EASA all your eggs need to be in the same basket. So you have to choose which state (UK or FR) is going to be the state responsible for your license, and all elements of your license need to be administered there. If you are renewing your SEP and/or medical, make sure that the examiner/doctor uses the forms (and possibly: language) that's acceptable to that state. Existing (non-expired) medicals and other bits need to be transferred to that state. Google "EASA SOLI request" for details.
The devil is in the details though.
Under EASA all your eggs need to be in the same basket. So you have to choose which state (UK or FR) is going to be the state responsible for your license, and all elements of your license need to be administered there. If you are renewing your SEP and/or medical, make sure that the examiner/doctor uses the forms (and possibly: language) that's acceptable to that state. Existing (non-expired) medicals and other bits need to be transferred to that state. Google "EASA SOLI request" for details.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks Backpacker, very helpful.
Being a permanent resident of the UK, it's been incredibly difficult to get this sorted out.
What the French authority is now saying is that if my SEP renewal is done in the UK, it needs to be done by a flight instructor registered with them (ie based in the UK but with the ability to issue SEP renewals for licenses issued in France). This makes it incredibly difficult to get done as I cannot imagine this is common. What's the point of having an EASA license if they will only renew it with an instructor based in the country where it was issued? Surely the standards are the same across the UK and France if they are both EASA member countries, I cannot understand why they wouldn't accept a UK CAA FI to do my renewal checkride.
To your point though, they have confirmed that once everything is in order, they will transfer my license to the UK CAA so that it can be administered from there.
Being a permanent resident of the UK, it's been incredibly difficult to get this sorted out.
What the French authority is now saying is that if my SEP renewal is done in the UK, it needs to be done by a flight instructor registered with them (ie based in the UK but with the ability to issue SEP renewals for licenses issued in France). This makes it incredibly difficult to get done as I cannot imagine this is common. What's the point of having an EASA license if they will only renew it with an instructor based in the country where it was issued? Surely the standards are the same across the UK and France if they are both EASA member countries, I cannot understand why they wouldn't accept a UK CAA FI to do my renewal checkride.
To your point though, they have confirmed that once everything is in order, they will transfer my license to the UK CAA so that it can be administered from there.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah. And until you've got your medical and SEP sorted out, you don't have a valid license, and only valid licenses can be transferred. So AFAIK there's no way to transfer whatever you have now beforehand...
Anyway, your SEP renewal is an exam that needs to be done with an examiner, not with an instructor. Examiners need to be known to the relevant *AA beforehand, and in a lot of cases examiners need to ask permission for an exam beforehand as well. Again, from the relevant *AA. It's not the *standards* that are different, but it's the *procedures* (forms and other paperwork) that are different.
EASA has produced a document for examiners where each countries local procedures, forms and approval process are described. Any examiner in EASA land should have heard of this document and should have the latest version bookmarked. And they should, before each exam, check for and perform any preliminary actions. So in theory, all this should not be your problem. But having said that, if this is the first time your examiner performs a "foreign" exam like this, you may want to give him some help...
https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi...2017_ORA_0.pdf
Similarly, your AME should know the differences in local procedures as well - again, it's not that the medical *standards* vary, but it's the *procedures*. Before your medical exam, make sure you detail your situation to the AME and they should be able to arrange the paperwork around your medical so that it is acceptable to both the DGAC and the CAA. That will facilitate an easy migration later on.
By the way, is there any particular reason that you want to transfer stuff over to the UK CAA? You don't *have to* transfer your license & stuff to the *AA of your country of residence: It's completely optional. I live in the Netherlands but my license is administered by the UK CAA. Not that I'm completely happy with the UK CAA, but the Dutch KIWA is not so much better that I'd want to move across. And a license transfer is not entirely free...
Anyway, your SEP renewal is an exam that needs to be done with an examiner, not with an instructor. Examiners need to be known to the relevant *AA beforehand, and in a lot of cases examiners need to ask permission for an exam beforehand as well. Again, from the relevant *AA. It's not the *standards* that are different, but it's the *procedures* (forms and other paperwork) that are different.
EASA has produced a document for examiners where each countries local procedures, forms and approval process are described. Any examiner in EASA land should have heard of this document and should have the latest version bookmarked. And they should, before each exam, check for and perform any preliminary actions. So in theory, all this should not be your problem. But having said that, if this is the first time your examiner performs a "foreign" exam like this, you may want to give him some help...
https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi...2017_ORA_0.pdf
Similarly, your AME should know the differences in local procedures as well - again, it's not that the medical *standards* vary, but it's the *procedures*. Before your medical exam, make sure you detail your situation to the AME and they should be able to arrange the paperwork around your medical so that it is acceptable to both the DGAC and the CAA. That will facilitate an easy migration later on.
By the way, is there any particular reason that you want to transfer stuff over to the UK CAA? You don't *have to* transfer your license & stuff to the *AA of your country of residence: It's completely optional. I live in the Netherlands but my license is administered by the UK CAA. Not that I'm completely happy with the UK CAA, but the Dutch KIWA is not so much better that I'd want to move across. And a license transfer is not entirely free...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
again very insightful, thanks BackPacker.
The reason I want to transfer my license over to the UK is that it's where I've lived for a long time and possibly where I will live until I retire. So having to jump through complicated hoops like I am at the moment to get another authority to issue me an SEP renewal is a headache I want to avoid in the future.
DGAC have issued me a list of UK examiners already registered with the DGAC but don't specify where they are based in the UK so not an efficient option. Don't know if the Examiners at my flight school will be interested in going through all the administrative steps to register with the DGAC as well as it seems they will need to take on online test and pay a fee. Will see what they say...
The reason I want to transfer my license over to the UK is that it's where I've lived for a long time and possibly where I will live until I retire. So having to jump through complicated hoops like I am at the moment to get another authority to issue me an SEP renewal is a headache I want to avoid in the future.
DGAC have issued me a list of UK examiners already registered with the DGAC but don't specify where they are based in the UK so not an efficient option. Don't know if the Examiners at my flight school will be interested in going through all the administrative steps to register with the DGAC as well as it seems they will need to take on online test and pay a fee. Will see what they say...
To make this process simple, download SRG 1136 and fill it in. Go to your local flying club and do a SEP renewal with a UK Examiner, the school will provide you with a SRG 1119E Course Completion Certificate; the Examiner will provide you with a SRG 1119C on passing the SEP proficiency check. Include those forms with your 1136 and send to the UK CAA. You can get your medical issued by a UK AME; no need to involve the DGAC at all.
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing100,
Please be aware that National Authorities are responsible for issuing Language Proficiencies and (most) will not recognise Proficiencies tested and recorded by another state.
The UK CAA will not recognise your English level 6 from your French issued Licence.
This is not a problem: Any UK Examiner can issue you with Level 6 English (provided you are) following an assessment (10 minute chat, or as part of a Proficiency Check).
Ensure you get your English LP recorded, either on the standard SEP Renewal Form if applying directly for a UK Licence, or on the stand alone LP form if applying first for renewal of your French issued one.
Note: If you have French Language Proficiency noted on your French issued Licence, I am unaware of any method of getting the UK CAA to recognise this.
Please be aware that National Authorities are responsible for issuing Language Proficiencies and (most) will not recognise Proficiencies tested and recorded by another state.
The UK CAA will not recognise your English level 6 from your French issued Licence.
This is not a problem: Any UK Examiner can issue you with Level 6 English (provided you are) following an assessment (10 minute chat, or as part of a Proficiency Check).
Ensure you get your English LP recorded, either on the standard SEP Renewal Form if applying directly for a UK Licence, or on the stand alone LP form if applying first for renewal of your French issued one.
Note: If you have French Language Proficiency noted on your French issued Licence, I am unaware of any method of getting the UK CAA to recognise this.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To make this process simple, download SRG 1136 and fill it in. Go to your local flying club and do a SEP renewal with a UK Examiner, the school will provide you with a SRG 1119E Course Completion Certificate; the Examiner will provide you with a SRG 1119C on passing the SEP proficiency check. Include those forms with your 1136 and send to the UK CAA. You can get your medical issued by a UK AME; no need to involve the DGAC at all.
Are you certain that the CAA will be able to handle the transfer of my license without the SEP rating being revalidated first? this is what the DGAC have seemed to imply.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing100,
Please be aware that National Authorities are responsible for issuing Language Proficiencies and (most) will not recognise Proficiencies tested and recorded by another state.
The UK CAA will not recognise your English level 6 from your French issued Licence.
This is not a problem: Any UK Examiner can issue you with Level 6 English (provided you are) following an assessment (10 minute chat, or as part of a Proficiency Check).
Ensure you get your English LP recorded, either on the standard SEP Renewal Form if applying directly for a UK Licence, or on the stand alone LP form if applying first for renewal of your French issued one.
Note: If you have French Language Proficiency noted on your French issued Licence, I am unaware of any method of getting the UK CAA to recognize this.
Please be aware that National Authorities are responsible for issuing Language Proficiencies and (most) will not recognise Proficiencies tested and recorded by another state.
The UK CAA will not recognise your English level 6 from your French issued Licence.
This is not a problem: Any UK Examiner can issue you with Level 6 English (provided you are) following an assessment (10 minute chat, or as part of a Proficiency Check).
Ensure you get your English LP recorded, either on the standard SEP Renewal Form if applying directly for a UK Licence, or on the stand alone LP form if applying first for renewal of your French issued one.
Note: If you have French Language Proficiency noted on your French issued Licence, I am unaware of any method of getting the UK CAA to recognize this.
Boeing 100
If you read my post it tells you to do the prof check in the UK; just send the forms and application to the CAA and they will transfer your licence with its newly renewed rating.
The SRG 1136 transfers the licence; the SRG 1119E and C will enable them to include the SEP rating which will be current for UK purposes. The Examiner will sign off your ELP at level 6, there is no test. There is no need to renew the SEP on the DGAC issued licence first.
If you read my post it tells you to do the prof check in the UK; just send the forms and application to the CAA and they will transfer your licence with its newly renewed rating.
The SRG 1136 transfers the licence; the SRG 1119E and C will enable them to include the SEP rating which will be current for UK purposes. The Examiner will sign off your ELP at level 6, there is no test. There is no need to renew the SEP on the DGAC issued licence first.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did not know that you could transfer what essentially amounts to a non-valid license, but this is good news and will make things a lot easier.
Nevertheless, make sure you have all your ducks in a row when you send the paperwork in. If possible, get somebody with experience in these matters to take a look at the final packet and confirm everything is OK. I had the same thing and I decided to include a cover letter, detailing exactly what I wanted the CAA to do, and what sort of forms/proof I included. (And then they chose to ignore parts of that anyway...
)
If applicable, make sure to include any extra, new stuff in your application as well. For instance, under EASA you now require an aerobatics rating if you want to do aerobatics. There are grandfather rights defined and if you are eligible for them, make sure you include the application and supporting paperwork in the packet. Same for banner towing and a few others. If you do not do this straight away, it's going to cost you money and frustration further down the line.
And even if you have done stuff in the past that's been expired (maybe an IMC/IR(R)), include paperwork of that as well, so that the CAA can add it to the back of your license, in the "expired ratings" section. That'll make reactivating that rating a lot easier in the future.
Nevertheless, make sure you have all your ducks in a row when you send the paperwork in. If possible, get somebody with experience in these matters to take a look at the final packet and confirm everything is OK. I had the same thing and I decided to include a cover letter, detailing exactly what I wanted the CAA to do, and what sort of forms/proof I included. (And then they chose to ignore parts of that anyway...
)If applicable, make sure to include any extra, new stuff in your application as well. For instance, under EASA you now require an aerobatics rating if you want to do aerobatics. There are grandfather rights defined and if you are eligible for them, make sure you include the application and supporting paperwork in the packet. Same for banner towing and a few others. If you do not do this straight away, it's going to cost you money and frustration further down the line.
And even if you have done stuff in the past that's been expired (maybe an IMC/IR(R)), include paperwork of that as well, so that the CAA can add it to the back of your license, in the "expired ratings" section. That'll make reactivating that rating a lot easier in the future.
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: with bosun Blue Sky and the jenny haniver "Hot Stuff"
Posts: 106
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And even if you have done stuff in the past that's been expired (maybe an IMC/IR(R)), include paperwork of that as well, so that the CAA can add it to the back of your license, in the "expired ratings" section. That'll make reactivating that rating a lot easier in the future.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing 100
If you read my post it tells you to do the prof check in the UK; just send the forms and application to the CAA and they will transfer your licence with its newly renewed rating.
The SRG 1136 transfers the licence; the SRG 1119E and C will enable them to include the SEP rating which will be current for UK purposes. The Examiner will sign off your ELP at level 6, there is no test. There is no need to renew the SEP on the DGAC issued licence first.
If you read my post it tells you to do the prof check in the UK; just send the forms and application to the CAA and they will transfer your licence with its newly renewed rating.
The SRG 1136 transfers the licence; the SRG 1119E and C will enable them to include the SEP rating which will be current for UK purposes. The Examiner will sign off your ELP at level 6, there is no test. There is no need to renew the SEP on the DGAC issued licence first.
But thanks a lot for your feedback on this, it really has made it a lot easier for me!
I've had renewals/medicals and biennials done by Greek, Belgian, French and Spanish authorities/individuals on my UK licences many times over the years. Just assumed that EASA was EASA.
Thanks for this, will take a closer look from now on!
Thanks for this, will take a closer look from now on!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Follow up question as I'm in the middle of flight training before passing the SEP revalidation checkride. Where can I find the CAA examiner guidance document specific to PPL SEP revalidation flights so that I know exactly what they will be testing for? i've found the one for initial PPL exams but not the revalidation
Thanks
Thanks
Last edited by Boeing100; 17th Oct 2017 at 13:19.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing it should be the PPL test again minus the full NAV portion.
But its really up to the examiner. Most take the trip to the GH area and back as confirming you can still look out the window and work out where you are.
But its really up to the examiner. Most take the trip to the GH area and back as confirming you can still look out the window and work out where you are.
