Can't believe I'm asking this
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If you take a look at the higher altitudes it all becomes a bit clearer - there's a 'spine' of airways running down the country connecting with the 'tracks' that airlines use to cross the Atlantic. The class D sections you're seeing effectively join up with this higher stuff which then joins with all the class A above FL195.
Down in the levels we fly at you are typically only seeing the bottom bits of this stepped system, hence random bits of 2500-3500 class D for no obvious reason.
Apologies if I was a bit harsh but it did come across as a very strange question for anyone that's passed for the PPL - you've got to expect a little Mickey taking.
Bit concerning about the 'no PFLs before the QXC thing' - what was the brief for if the donk failed?
Down in the levels we fly at you are typically only seeing the bottom bits of this stepped system, hence random bits of 2500-3500 class D for no obvious reason.
Apologies if I was a bit harsh but it did come across as a very strange question for anyone that's passed for the PPL - you've got to expect a little Mickey taking.
Bit concerning about the 'no PFLs before the QXC thing' - what was the brief for if the donk failed?
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Just One More Q
Head over to the Students section of the Flyer Forum, where there is a no-flaming policy and no question is a daft one.
There are too many pathetic egos needing a massage on here.
You won't regret it.
C.
Head over to the Students section of the Flyer Forum, where there is a no-flaming policy and no question is a daft one.
There are too many pathetic egos needing a massage on here.
You won't regret it.
C.
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I still stick to my word about finding another instructor to do some nav and going through things, it will save you a lot of trouble and make you enjoy flying though.
No question is a daft one correct, but a seemingly lack of training in 2017 is worrying and needs highlighting (and hopefully some serious auditing). Well done for realising that the blue licence doesn't mean the learning stops!
All the best.
No question is a daft one correct, but a seemingly lack of training in 2017 is worrying and needs highlighting (and hopefully some serious auditing). Well done for realising that the blue licence doesn't mean the learning stops!
All the best.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I'm sticking to my views as well.
Not your fault but I don't think you were very well trained at all.
"Avoid class D" no PFLs etc.
A good session with a real instructor would help.
I don't see where the ego thing comes from either.
Not your fault but I don't think you were very well trained at all.
"Avoid class D" no PFLs etc.
A good session with a real instructor would help.
I don't see where the ego thing comes from either.
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I'm sticking to my views as well.
One of them is that it is not possible to gain a ppl in the UK without understanding airspace. It's fundamental to the air law theory test for starters. Doesn't matter how poor your instructor is, it's an examiner who assessed the suitability of the candidate via a series of theory exams and a flight test.
One of them is that it is not possible to gain a ppl in the UK without understanding airspace. It's fundamental to the air law theory test for starters. Doesn't matter how poor your instructor is, it's an examiner who assessed the suitability of the candidate via a series of theory exams and a flight test.
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Buy the air pilots manual navigation book and have a read, also worth a look at skydemon in order to better understand the airspace setup. After a while you will see that it is not that complicated after all. Interestingly having gained a clearance into Class D airspace recently and then having been asked to orbit, a shuttle callsign comes on the radio and says in a stern voice to the controller "did you know there is a high wing light aircraft circling on the coast line", the reply was "yes thanks, it is way below you so is not an issue" ..... Imagine that, a light aircraft in Class D, what was I thinking!
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I say again - so forgive this old story.... wishing to transit Birmingham in my Supercub, properly equipped with all bells and whistles and my Instrument Rating, I asked the controller very nicely for permission.
"Negative" he said. and said it again three or four more times. I could hear no other traffic on the Brummie frequency. But gave up and spiraled down through the clag to Husbands Bosworth to wait out the weather.
And a BA pilot put in his two pence...."You're not in America now, you know!"
I wonder if any other readers have found it difficult to obtain clearances in the UK....
"Negative" he said. and said it again three or four more times. I could hear no other traffic on the Brummie frequency. But gave up and spiraled down through the clag to Husbands Bosworth to wait out the weather.
And a BA pilot put in his two pence...."You're not in America now, you know!"
I wonder if any other readers have found it difficult to obtain clearances in the UK....
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Unfortunately, I'm going to go with not the world's best training. The school I attended had a very high pass rate, but I think that was probably because the examiner was a little too lenient (not sure what tolerances there are). When I took my test, I messed up on two parts, and was given a hint and another opportunity. Obviously, I was grateful, but can't help but think it wasn't for the best. I know full well that I need a bit more practise with an instructor before I do much flying, and I was aware it was Class D and the reasons for this (Thanks alex90 and PC).
I think I worded my question badly, making me appear slightly thicker than I actually am.
My instructor had a particular way of doing things which I think wasn't great. I didn't do PFLs until my 43rd hour (so after my QXC) and didn't even start on VOR until 2 lessons before my test as he thought I'd already covered it :/
Basically, I understand that obviously, around airports, there need to be routes for the airliners etc to descend etc etc, but what I couldn't quite get my head around is why in some places there is so much Class D airspace, and then when you get into Scotland, there's literally a few airports, but everywhere else is Class G.
I do get it, so thanks for those that made their contributions. To the guys that just rip the sugar out of me, I get that I may ask some stupid sounding questions, and I'm sorry, but hey ho.
I think I worded my question badly, making me appear slightly thicker than I actually am.
My instructor had a particular way of doing things which I think wasn't great. I didn't do PFLs until my 43rd hour (so after my QXC) and didn't even start on VOR until 2 lessons before my test as he thought I'd already covered it :/
Basically, I understand that obviously, around airports, there need to be routes for the airliners etc to descend etc etc, but what I couldn't quite get my head around is why in some places there is so much Class D airspace, and then when you get into Scotland, there's literally a few airports, but everywhere else is Class G.
I do get it, so thanks for those that made their contributions. To the guys that just rip the sugar out of me, I get that I may ask some stupid sounding questions, and I'm sorry, but hey ho.
First.
Flying schools do not have a "pass rate". Students will either pass the GFT in a month or they may take years, or give up and leave.
The fact that controlled airspace is more crowded in the south is because there are more airfields close together down there than up here.
Every student pilot will be shown/will buy, a chart and be taught what classes of controlled airspace is for and why. Long before any test.
You didn't start VOR until two lessons before your test.
I don't think it is referred to as VOR, it is "radio navigation". And if you haven't grasped it your instructor would not put you through for the test until you had.
Test day does not just arrive at a particular time, you get recommended for the test when your instructor thinks you have learned enough to pass, not at the end of a time period.
"He thought I'd already covered it". No, he has your training record and the syllabus to hand.
The syllabus follows a sequence, signed for and followed by the instructor, any instructor can look at your record of progress and depending on that and the weather he will formulate the lesson. Not necessarily in 1,2,3,4 sequence but close enough.
Either your school was a bunch of utter Cowboys or fiddling your records I don't know.
Get your training records from the flying school and take them to a well known other school and discuss it with them.
There is something lacking in the basic understanding of flight training.
And I am not ripping the sugar out of you.
I'm more concerned for your, and everyone else's safety.
The Original Whirly
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mary, I often found it difficult to obtain clearances through controlled airspace. Indeed, I got so fed up with them being refused that I simply planned to go around them - why plan two routes when one would do? I even once got jumped on for planning a turning point right on the edge of Birmingham's airspace. The controller said, "That's really close to us you know". Yes, I did know, since I had a chart. And I knew if I kept to the left of the road I was OK, and I knew the area well and was in a helicopter so both nav and precise flying were easy on a clear day. But she was adamant and obviously worried, so I sighed and didn't argue, and agreed a turning point a couple of miles away.
As for the original question, it really worries me if new-ish PPLs feel they can't ask something here for fear of being thought stupid. Also the way responders jump to conclusions...he doesn't know what controlled airspace is, arghhhh. That wasn't what he said! He knew you didn't go through it without permission. That is not the same as knowing why specifically that bit of airspace is controlled, which struck me as what was being asked...or it could be. People learn by asking questions. Those of us who know should be willing to answer them. That way someone learns more. And if his initial training wasn't that brilliant - well, mine wasn't either, and I filled in the gaps later on, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. That's what these forums are for, at least partly. Well, they were in the dim and distant past when I used to come here frequently, and they should be. If not, them I'm leaving for another few months or years.
As for the original question, it really worries me if new-ish PPLs feel they can't ask something here for fear of being thought stupid. Also the way responders jump to conclusions...he doesn't know what controlled airspace is, arghhhh. That wasn't what he said! He knew you didn't go through it without permission. That is not the same as knowing why specifically that bit of airspace is controlled, which struck me as what was being asked...or it could be. People learn by asking questions. Those of us who know should be willing to answer them. That way someone learns more. And if his initial training wasn't that brilliant - well, mine wasn't either, and I filled in the gaps later on, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. That's what these forums are for, at least partly. Well, they were in the dim and distant past when I used to come here frequently, and they should be. If not, them I'm leaving for another few months or years.
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I don't think he is being considered stupid.
Some of us are concerned at the quality/content of his training and advising him to get further help from a more professional organisation.
It wasn't just the airspace question, it was also coming across as if he thought the course amounted to a fixed number of lessons, full stop, test time! Etc. That may of course be wrong.
What's wrong with trying to point that out?
Some of us are concerned at the quality/content of his training and advising him to get further help from a more professional organisation.
It wasn't just the airspace question, it was also coming across as if he thought the course amounted to a fixed number of lessons, full stop, test time! Etc. That may of course be wrong.
What's wrong with trying to point that out?
The Original Whirly
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"What's wrong with trying to point that out?"
Absolutely nothing. But some posts - can't remember if yours was one of them - were coming across as highly critical of the questioner, not just the training organisation. If you look back, I'm not the only person who thought so. And if those posts made me cringe, I doubt if I'm the only one, as I'm not particularly sensitive. That's all.
Absolutely nothing. But some posts - can't remember if yours was one of them - were coming across as highly critical of the questioner, not just the training organisation. If you look back, I'm not the only person who thought so. And if those posts made me cringe, I doubt if I'm the only one, as I'm not particularly sensitive. That's all.
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I'm sorry but I've read it all again and I can't see anyone criticising the OP.
We are criticising his training. If any of mine have come across otherwise, my apologies.
On a side note, but related. I once had a notion to build a 3D model using blocks of translucent plastic stuck to the Scottish chart to physically show the airspace shapes. You could then poke a model of the aircraft under/over the shelves and see how it all fits together. Never got round to it but I thought it might help.
We are criticising his training. If any of mine have come across otherwise, my apologies.
On a side note, but related. I once had a notion to build a 3D model using blocks of translucent plastic stuck to the Scottish chart to physically show the airspace shapes. You could then poke a model of the aircraft under/over the shelves and see how it all fits together. Never got round to it but I thought it might help.
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I don't read anything excessively critical of the OP but I do wonder why he hasn't been pointed more clearly at the most obvious solution: more training. If he is a genuine poster and does have a PPL, there's nothing at all to stop him going along to a reputable training organization and asking for a few hours of remedial instruction. Most training organizations I know would be happy to help and, indeed, I've known several mature-minded people, in both recreational and general aviation, who've done exactly that. No shame at all in asking for a supplementary navex through controlled airspace, then following it up by having an instructor (or experienced pilot) sit in the right hand seat while you do some more.
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[quote
As for the original question, it really worries me if new-ish PPLs feel they can't ask something here for fear of being thought stupid. Also the way responders jump to conclusions...he doesn't know what controlled airspace is, arghhhh. That wasn't what he said! He knew you didn't go through it without permission. That is not the same as knowing why specifically that bit of airspace is controlled, which struck me as what was being asked...or it could be. People learn by asking questions. Those of us who know should be willing to answer them. That way someone learns more. And if his initial training wasn't that brilliant - well, mine wasn't either, and I filled in the gaps later on, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. That's what these forums are for, at least partly. Well, they were in the dim and distant past when I used to come here frequently, and they should be. If not, them I'm leaving for another few months or years.][/quote]
Absolutely, thank you Whirly
Crash One. I hear what you're saying, but I promise it's the truth. We went up 2 lessons before my test (which had already been booked). I was asked to do some RNAV once we were in the air, and when I asked him what to do, he realised we hadn't touched on it in the aircraft. I meant 1st time pass rate, rather than just general pass rate.
I'm moving 350 miles tomorrow, and will be finding a new flying club where I will be asking lots of questions before I do more flying. I am under no delusions that I need more training before I do more flying, but with time being quite limited, if I can ask questions on here and find out more, it'll save me valuable time at the instructor that I'll be paying for.
Thank you
As for the original question, it really worries me if new-ish PPLs feel they can't ask something here for fear of being thought stupid. Also the way responders jump to conclusions...he doesn't know what controlled airspace is, arghhhh. That wasn't what he said! He knew you didn't go through it without permission. That is not the same as knowing why specifically that bit of airspace is controlled, which struck me as what was being asked...or it could be. People learn by asking questions. Those of us who know should be willing to answer them. That way someone learns more. And if his initial training wasn't that brilliant - well, mine wasn't either, and I filled in the gaps later on, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. That's what these forums are for, at least partly. Well, they were in the dim and distant past when I used to come here frequently, and they should be. If not, them I'm leaving for another few months or years.][/quote]
Absolutely, thank you Whirly
Crash One. I hear what you're saying, but I promise it's the truth. We went up 2 lessons before my test (which had already been booked). I was asked to do some RNAV once we were in the air, and when I asked him what to do, he realised we hadn't touched on it in the aircraft. I meant 1st time pass rate, rather than just general pass rate.
I'm moving 350 miles tomorrow, and will be finding a new flying club where I will be asking lots of questions before I do more flying. I am under no delusions that I need more training before I do more flying, but with time being quite limited, if I can ask questions on here and find out more, it'll save me valuable time at the instructor that I'll be paying for.
Thank you
Just one more question, that sounds like an excellent plan. You have your licence to learn, go and enjoy doing it. If you ever feel like spreading your wings in France, let me know and you can have a flight in the cub.
Oh , and one more thought. Most of the people here are basically helpful. You would probably like them if you met in the bar. Sometimes when posting or reading it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick. Anyway, remember what Jonathan Livingston seagull said "it's supposed to be fun"
Oh , and one more thought. Most of the people here are basically helpful. You would probably like them if you met in the bar. Sometimes when posting or reading it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick. Anyway, remember what Jonathan Livingston seagull said "it's supposed to be fun"
