Question re extending downwind.
I did my 30 hour PPL in the summer of 1964 at the Wiltshire Aero Club / Flying School at Thruxton Airfield.
Six Jackeroos, and 2 or more Piper Colts, all non-radio, all training, near to Middle Wallop where the Army Air Core trained on Austers. No Air Traffic service of any kind, as the tower was offices. No light signals. Just the Signal Square and windsock.
When flying you almost always had other aircraft in sight, so your brain knew what to look for.
Six Jackeroos, and 2 or more Piper Colts, all non-radio, all training, near to Middle Wallop where the Army Air Core trained on Austers. No Air Traffic service of any kind, as the tower was offices. No light signals. Just the Signal Square and windsock.
When flying you almost always had other aircraft in sight, so your brain knew what to look for.
Who needs technology!
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Here we get controlled all the time in the circuit - routinely we get instructed to extend "extend the downwind...and, caution wake turbulence" for landing air busses - the distance of the extension can be rather "silly".
Last Sunday after a flit around the island we swapped pilots for my friend to do some touch and goes - we managed two in 40 minutes - at one point "in the circuit" on the extended downwind we were 7.6 miles DME from the airport. The T&G's were in between a BA and an Air Canada so it does explain it - but the instruction to extend is rather odd as we could have got in and out again easily, but it pays to be safe rather than sorry.
On elected to go extend downwind, I don't see the issue so long as one climbs, but then once well above circuit height is one actually in the circuit?
Last Sunday after a flit around the island we swapped pilots for my friend to do some touch and goes - we managed two in 40 minutes - at one point "in the circuit" on the extended downwind we were 7.6 miles DME from the airport. The T&G's were in between a BA and an Air Canada so it does explain it - but the instruction to extend is rather odd as we could have got in and out again easily, but it pays to be safe rather than sorry.
On elected to go extend downwind, I don't see the issue so long as one climbs, but then once well above circuit height is one actually in the circuit?
from the OP:
As others have said, try asking the other aircraft where they are? (Assuming radios fitted)
There is always the option, if you lose SA (or never had it) on other circuit traffic, to leave the circuit entirely, both laterally and vertically and rejoin later. It probably won’t be much of a difference in eventual landing time. Throwing in random orbits, excessively long downwind legs and/or going through the overhead at circuit height appears to be more likely to lead to conflicts, if you read the UKAB reports...
I'm on downwind, preparing to turn base but I am aware of an A/C on final which I cannot see.
There is always the option, if you lose SA (or never had it) on other circuit traffic, to leave the circuit entirely, both laterally and vertically and rejoin later. It probably won’t be much of a difference in eventual landing time. Throwing in random orbits, excessively long downwind legs and/or going through the overhead at circuit height appears to be more likely to lead to conflicts, if you read the UKAB reports...
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At an uncontrolled airfield it is beholden on the arriving aircraft to confirm with the existing traffic. Yes of course it awfully convenient to join on a straight in, but you can't expect others to move out of your way. Therefore, I'd stick to the normal circuit and keep a good lookout.
PM
PM
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Thank you all for taking the time to respond, I have taken lots from this thread that will help inform my decision-making/conflict resolution. Ultimately the golden rule is don't hit anyone, remain predictable and inform circuit traffic if having to do something unexpected. Perhaps a trip to spec-savers too.
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If anyone's going to orbit for spacing then its the guy joining on finals. No way should they expect circuit traffic to disrupt or modify their pattern.
On the other hand if the "circuit" is a vast as some I have seen the poor fella's hardly going to be able to tell if anyone's in it. Circuit traffic have an obligation to maintain a proper sized circuit too, and that means within flapless gliding distance of the field at the base turn.
On the other hand if the "circuit" is a vast as some I have seen the poor fella's hardly going to be able to tell if anyone's in it. Circuit traffic have an obligation to maintain a proper sized circuit too, and that means within flapless gliding distance of the field at the base turn.
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Rented C172, departed from Albert Whitted, St. Pete, Florida, for sightseeing.
Having explored the shoreline for a while, returned to the appropriate place for telling ATC that I would like to join the "Pattern" to land. Tower said come on in, traffic ahead of you. Not just the usual traffic, it was two small peculiar aircraft together, at about 45 mph, heading in on 36. So I said to the Tower, I would like to maneuver for spacing from the traffic, and did a very nice 360.
Only trouble, back on the usual approach line for 36, the two little aircraft had vanished! where did they go?
To my surprise, they had completely altered their pattern, and were now on approach to runway 27! So I told the tower that I also now planned to use 27 and follow the traffic, that was approved. All very relaxed, not all that busy.
But even not busy, so important to KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! I hadn't heard the tower mention it would be a different runway....
LOOKOUT IS MOST IMPORTANT! and communication can be helpful in knowing where to look.
Having explored the shoreline for a while, returned to the appropriate place for telling ATC that I would like to join the "Pattern" to land. Tower said come on in, traffic ahead of you. Not just the usual traffic, it was two small peculiar aircraft together, at about 45 mph, heading in on 36. So I said to the Tower, I would like to maneuver for spacing from the traffic, and did a very nice 360.
Only trouble, back on the usual approach line for 36, the two little aircraft had vanished! where did they go?
To my surprise, they had completely altered their pattern, and were now on approach to runway 27! So I told the tower that I also now planned to use 27 and follow the traffic, that was approved. All very relaxed, not all that busy.
But even not busy, so important to KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT! I hadn't heard the tower mention it would be a different runway....
LOOKOUT IS MOST IMPORTANT! and communication can be helpful in knowing where to look.
[QUOTE][If anyone's going to orbit for spacing then its the guy joining on finals. No way should they expect circuit traffic to disrupt or modify their pattern/QUOTE]
The two most important things at an uncontrolled airfield are to avoid colliding with another aircraft, and to avoid losing control of your aircraft.
A lawyer can fix other problems.
The two most important things at an uncontrolled airfield are to avoid colliding with another aircraft, and to avoid losing control of your aircraft.
A lawyer can fix other problems.
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Tangoalphad, St. Pete Florida airport is controlled. So we inform the tower of our position, our intentions, and do nothing without permission. My orbit for spacing had been approved.
The change of runway implied that if the other traffic had completed their approach and landing on 27, and I was still arriving on 36, it could be messy.
Always a good idea to let other traffic know what you intend. And at a controlled airport, you are required to do as the controller requests!
In a rented aircraft, always possible that the radio connections are not working properly, so verify any instruction that doesn't make sense.
The change of runway implied that if the other traffic had completed their approach and landing on 27, and I was still arriving on 36, it could be messy.
Always a good idea to let other traffic know what you intend. And at a controlled airport, you are required to do as the controller requests!
In a rented aircraft, always possible that the radio connections are not working properly, so verify any instruction that doesn't make sense.
Mary,
An interesting comment from you above.
If it really was "controlled" as effectively as you think it was that day, why didn't their ATC question your call sign as to why the r/way change hadn't been acknowledged ? Seeing as they were already exchanging positional RT stuff with you and knew your were taking steps to remain #2 to the small 'planes.
Ergo it wasn't quite so controlled as even you fondly thought so as ever it's back to the PIC in more ways than one - precisely as you have explained.
Ergo, don't trust any system even if 'it should be' i/c.
mike hallam (grass strip operator England)
An interesting comment from you above.
If it really was "controlled" as effectively as you think it was that day, why didn't their ATC question your call sign as to why the r/way change hadn't been acknowledged ? Seeing as they were already exchanging positional RT stuff with you and knew your were taking steps to remain #2 to the small 'planes.
Ergo it wasn't quite so controlled as even you fondly thought so as ever it's back to the PIC in more ways than one - precisely as you have explained.
Ergo, don't trust any system even if 'it should be' i/c.
mike hallam (grass strip operator England)
