Aircrew emergency escape parachute during ATPL, why NOT

[flying free.LEVC]

Hi guys, I know this is a bit of a tabu, a sensitive topic for GA pilots but maybe we should start leaving our ego on the ground and start wearing one.

Glider and aerobatic pilots use one, they say itīs due to the higher risk of collision (gliders) or structural failure (aerobatics) and honestly, Iīve been flying in the UK near busy GA airports and the risk of mid-air collision is THERE.

Most instructors will say that itīs extremely rare to need one, but I would rather have my back covered than limiting my chances in a catastrophic (but unlikely) situation.

There are plenty of recent examples (some of them on youtube) where pilot lives have been saved, or could have been saved with a parachute, mid air collision with another plane where you are likely to lose half wing or the empenage, engine fire, engine failure during night flying...I can think of a few situations where jumping off would be safer than staying inside the old piper or cessna 152 with no options left.

I know they are expensive (asking price of 1600 pounds), but gliders do, aerobatics do...even new planes are being built with one incorporatedĄ

[Piltdown Man]

There is already a thread on this subject here. It covers the subject well. But I'll answer - Firstly, I honestly don't think you'll get out of a bug smasher, even with thousands of feet beneath you when the problem starts. Secondly - you won't fit. Thirdly, too many will give up, try and bail out and die instead of switching to the other tank. Lastly, I not so sure bailing out have ever been a recommendation from accident investigators.

[flying free.LEVC]

Thanks for your answer Piltdown man, we donīt receive any training on parachutes nor when to use it, but maybe it would be sensible as a last resort:

Imagine these 3 "unlikely" situations:

A: Engine fire at cruising altitude, night flying , unable to manoeuvre the aircraft or find a field, wait to burn off and die.
B: First solo student hits your tail at 2700 feet, unable to manoeuvre the aircraft, wait to hit the ground and die.
C: Extinguish your options inside, plane is gonna hit the ground with or without you,, jump off and hope for the best.

[flying free.LEVC]

Would you take one with you on each flight if they were readily available at your local flying club?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p6hqMnsLFY

[B2N2]

Thirdly, too many will give up, try and bail out and die

That's got to be a frontrunner for the dumbest argument.
Excatly the reason why WW1 English pilots weren't issued parachutes at it would lead to unsportsmanlike behaviour.

Anyway....why no 'chutes while trotting around in your bugsmasher?

• Seat are not built for it (unless its an aero airplane)
• No jettisonable doors or canopy (unless its an aero airplane)

Try getting out of a Pa28 () on the ground and stopped in a hurry.
Especially with a pax on the side with the only door..it's not happening.
Realistically you have to stop somewhere with your what-if scenario as truthfully you wouldn't even fly in a 4 engined jet with triple redundancy if you play the what-if game long enough.

I personally know people (me included) that will not fly a SE piston aircraft at night.
Reason being I don't have to anymore, but I have 400+ hrs SE piston night.
Neither will I fly a SE piston over water out of glide range.
Reason being, I don't have to anymore, but I have on 100+ occassions in the past.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do but you don't fly a SE piston GA tourer in a Nomex fire retardent suit with a helmet and a parachute.
Why not?
Because the risk analysis doesn' t warrant it.

To each his own but if you are this concerned you need to consider another hobby as you may be overdoing it.
Or only fly a Cirrus or anything else with a ballistic parachute recovery system.
If I had any say in our esteemed Regulating body I would make BRS mandatory in non turbine powered small aircraft.
But even those can't fix stupid.

* As an afterthough as we just had a fatal mid-air here in Florida, the chances of living through the initial impact are slim. Even a collision between two (very) slow aircraft like C150's will give you an impact at 90+mph which in something that flimsy will be instantly fatal.

[hobbit1983]

OP,

Do you own shares in a parachute manufacturer?

[B2N2]

What's the cause of 99% or accidents in light GA?
You can't fix pilot error with a parachute.

[9 lives]

I've been flying steadily for more than 40 years. I have never wished I had a parachute. I don't know any pilot who has ever commented to me that they liked the idea of wearing a parachute. And, as B2N2 correctly says, how do you plan to get out in flight?

[fujii]

Parachutes seem like like a good idea. Cherokee with with four seats equals four parachutes. Leave out equivalent weight in fuel to meet MTOW. Fuel exhaustion so use parachutes.

[megan]

It's wonderful how we all perceive risk. As an ex skydiver I've come to the belief that the most dangerous part of the sport these days is the aeroplane ride. Accidents seem frequent.

A brain surgeon here in Australia commented that he wished car occupants were required to wear helmets, for that was where most of his business originated. Could you see that idea being accepted?

[B2N2]

The majority of civil GA aircraft are not suitable by design ( or lack thereof ) for a parachute egress.
Former military trainers are.
I wore parachutes during glider competitions because there is inherently more risk then during a local flight.

[9 lives]

I know this is a bit of a tabu, a sensitive topic for GA pilots but maybe we should start leaving our ego on the ground and start wearing one.

It's probably perceived as a taboo, as this is a pilot's forum, and the pilot's role is to fly the 'plane - 'till it's safely stopped on the ground again. I commit to fly the plane, until flying it is no longer required, I won't give up when things get tough.

My commitment to flying the plane will include not doing dumb things in the plane which create an unsafe situation. So, I won't need to get out. I was required by policy to wear a parachute while flying jumpers, not because of the risk I could not fly the 'plane, but rather the risk that a jumper would hit the 'plane, and render it unflyable. I think it has happened, though often at an altitude from which a successful parachute descent was improbable anyway.

In the case of the risk of mid air collision, if the collision has been so severe to create an opening in the aircraft through which you might exit, you died, forget it.

If you would like to be a well accepted participant in GA toward ATPL flying, always fly alert for traffic, don't bung up an aircraft during aerobatics, and generally commit to being a pilot with everything you have. If you change to a piloting role, where the aircraft is normally equipped with a parachute, and egress means, then you're in that world, and you should fly that way.

If I saw a pilot walking toward one of my 'planes carrying a parachute, they suddenly would not be going flying in my plane. They are not demonstrating confidence in the safety of GA flying, so I'm not confident in them....

[Cows getting bigger]

I think there's far more mileage in the BRS argument. For many of the reasons given above, the majority of light GA aircraft aren't designed to have crew parachutes as part of the 'system'.

[Skylark58]

Originally Posted by flying free.LEVC

B: First solo student hits your tail at 2700 feet, unable to manoeuvre the aircraft, wait to hit the ground and die.

Given that first solo flights involve just one circuit that would seem an unlikely event

[9 lives]

However there have been many cases of when people have bailed out, due to control issues and other factors. For example a JS1 when the rudder pedals moved away from the shorter pilot, became unreachable and unable to be adjusted, forcing the glider to lose control. Pilot bailed out and survived. Likewise there are examples of a mis-rigged glider going up a winch launch without an elevator connected, and by sheer luck reaching the top. The pilot(s) have then bailed out from at least 1000ft QFE and survived.

I've only flown gliders twice, and really enjoyed it (they're less common in Canada). From the passage above, I could get the impression that there is less vigilance about assuring the aircraft is flight ready before beginning.

I have had several aircraft which were very difficult to fly due to control failure and misrigging following errant maintenance, which as the maintenance check pilot, I was first to find. These hidden defects were very difficult to detect in a pre flight inspection (though I'm learning to be more invasive in my walkarounds!). But I still would rather have fought the aircraft back to the ground, than consider getting out of it!

But, I do see the difference in being towed up hundreds of feet, to then find a problem you can't handle. I accept that gliding may be more risky.

In the genre of flying I do, I have never heard of an after the event discussion which went like "wow, if that pilot had a parachute, and got out, he'd be alive today!". I suppose there have been some, but I've never heard one. To a larger extent, fatal accidents are either CFIT, or otherwise so low that exit would not allow successful parachute deployment, or loss of control at altitude so severe that exit would not have worked (spiral dive).

In the military, parachuting, experimental flight test, aerobatics, and 'sounds like gliding, things are different, and parachutes may be appropriate. In my opinion, not GA, when flown with the intended diligence.

[PDR1]

Originally Posted by flying free.LEVC

Hi guys, I know this is a bit of a tabu, a sensitive topic for GA pilots but maybe we should start leaving our ego on the ground

Like that's ever going to happen...



My thoughts - full ejection from a military aeroplane within the ejection envelope is (IIRC) rated as a 95% probability of survival, mostly with injuries. Outside the ejection envelope I believe that drops to under 25%.

I can't find any readily available data, but I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that "taking to the silk" in the 1940s was regarded as a 50-50 chance at best, and most of these aircraft had either open cockpits or direct exit from the seat through a (usually jettesoned) canopy space.

The closer analogy for GA pilots would be the crew of bombers who had to go to an emergency exit to get out. I understand that the probability of surviving by parachhuting from a crippled RAF bomber was thought to be under 10%, because if the aeroplane is gyrating or burning it may be a real struggle just getting to the hatch. I understand the typical Luftwaffe bombers were even worse in this regard.

Now look at a typical GA aeroplane - non-jettesonable doors which are small, and awkward to get through even on the ground. Imagine trying to open them against the airflow in a gyrating aeroplane with an engine fire. Then imagine trying to set yourself up to jump clear in a specific direction so that your skull doesn't get escalloped by the tailplane.

My personal view is that the probability of me ever being in a position where leaving the aeroplane in flight might be necessary for survival is very, very small. Actually having a parachute with me increases the survival probability
by a miniscule amount. Therefore the reduced risk is disproportionate to the cost and operational constraints of having the thing with me*.

It's the same reason for my view of the Lottery. The probability of me winning is absolutely tiny, and it's not really made significantly bigger by actually buying a ticket...

PDR

* That's actually the technical definition of ALARP - spooky, huh!

[Ebbie 2003]

In the event of a mid-air or some other catastrophic event at my usual 2,000 to 4,000ft altitude I do not think I could assess the situation fast enough to get out of my PA28 and leave sufficient altitude to have a parachute open.

In particular I do not think I would be able to get the door open due to the relative wind.

Twenty years ago I used to fly a Robin Aiglon with my brother, it had tabs to pull to eject the canopy - if I were flying that airplane I would have no worries about getting out.

On my inter island flights I typically fly at 7,000 to 9,000ft - it would have to be a lost wing to make me want to get out without my raft and other survival gear - again the problem of getting the door open.

So no parachute for me.

[Maoraigh1]

If going for an ATPL, NOT wearing a parachute will get you accustomed​ to the airline environment, where flight crew carrying parachutes through security may attract even more suspicion than those carrying litre bottles of water.

[Tarq57]

When I was a kid I thought that parachutes were probably standard equipment on a light aircraft. They'd be stowed under the seats (I thought), and in the event the aircraft came apart or exploded, you'd simply grab one, strap it on, and leap to safety.

That seems to me to be about the level the OP is coming from.
The idea of jumping out of the average GA aircraft following a middair or fire would be desirable -given the obvious alternative - but tantamount to impossible, unless you were in a type with a canopy or doors that can be jettisoned. Even then, I reckon it would be a difficult operation. And if you were below about 100 seconds plummet altitude, forget it.

[Biggles78]

After obtaining my CPL I got a gig flying skydivers. It was regulation that we had to wear a parachute and the club had a very nice comfortable slim pack with a tiny 22' round canopy (I was told broken legs if I had to use it). I did a lot of thinking about an emergency and figured that in the Cherokee 6, with the door behind me on the left, in ideal circumstances, that it would need to be at 5,500' to enable a successful exit. An airfield I flew at had a Cessna 206, door behind and to the right of the pilot, had it's tailplane ripped off. It was level at 4,500', 80kts and it was estimated that the pilot got out at about 400' and was under canopy for 3 to 4 seconds. (The skydive club presented him with his First Jump certificate and then grounded him for opening low. True! )


flying free.LEVC, skydive aircraft have an open door during drops so as Ebbie 2003 states, "I do not think I would be able to get the door open due to the relative wind." the skydive pilot doesn't have that problem. In the 206 instance, the pilot only had to release his harness and climb his way to the open door. This still took FOUR THOUSAND FEET of altitude. Now imagine trying to open the door against an ever increasing pressure against the door. In this case the ASI was recovered with the needle jammed at 220kts. Try pushing against that! Then you have any aerodynamic forces acting upon you. The pilot in the 206 described what it was like fighting his way out as the aircraft and if he had been just ONE second slower, he would not have made it.


I just hope he applied for his Caterpillar Club membership. He did the hard work and really, really deserved it. Jeez, just realised that was 30 years ago in January. Apart from dropping jumpers, I have never found a situation where I would have needed to use a parachute.