Getting robbed,"taxy time"
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Getting robbed,"taxy time"
Anybody come across this when being charged for training,hire etc.
This works out at block/tacho time + ten minutes.
To explain,time was logged from engine start to engine stop and includes time idling and run up checks etc,tacho time was also used (and rounded up )when added to log.
Times were put in log and ten minutes added to total time,it works out cost wise at £23.33 extra on top of total cost.
When questioned they said its "taxy time" and that's what they charge everyone,surely this is not legal unless terms are displayed and agreed to if you choose to hire or take up training.
Thoughts on this and its legality ?
This works out at block/tacho time + ten minutes.
To explain,time was logged from engine start to engine stop and includes time idling and run up checks etc,tacho time was also used (and rounded up )when added to log.
Times were put in log and ten minutes added to total time,it works out cost wise at £23.33 extra on top of total cost.
When questioned they said its "taxy time" and that's what they charge everyone,surely this is not legal unless terms are displayed and agreed to if you choose to hire or take up training.
Thoughts on this and its legality ?
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There are many ways of charging.
I know of time charged chock to chock, i.e. time moving.
We get charged by the HOBBS meter, roughly engine running time.
And I've heard of take off to landing plus 10 minutes taxy time (for busy fields where you might have to queue and hold unfairly).
But engine start to finish PLUS 10 minutes sounds illogical and unreasonable.
Of course any instruction, briefing, de-briefing would be reasonable to charge extra.
I know of time charged chock to chock, i.e. time moving.
We get charged by the HOBBS meter, roughly engine running time.
And I've heard of take off to landing plus 10 minutes taxy time (for busy fields where you might have to queue and hold unfairly).
But engine start to finish PLUS 10 minutes sounds illogical and unreasonable.
Of course any instruction, briefing, de-briefing would be reasonable to charge extra.
Last edited by JSAG; 4th Jan 2017 at 11:02.
Many clubs/schools do this if charging using a tacho rate. They do it to compete with others who quote chocks rates, generally not to cheat the customer (although some do). This is because a sensible tacho rate looks really expensive until you "convert" it to a brakes off / brakes on cost. You sort of need to compare apples with oranges correctly, if you get my drift.
PM me if you need further explanation.............
PM me if you need further explanation.............
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The school I used to work for charged for training and check rides on tach time plus 10 min before and 10 min after for briefing and debriefing. This was transparent in the price list and all welcomed that because this time was also the basis for payment of the freelance FI/CFI/CFE. I thought this as to be fair.
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Fully understand both comments and your points of view.
I intentionally put down on the log engine start time,flew the detail and engine stop time and tacho end time,total time was approx 40 mins,this was total time the engine ran and total time for use of the plane..
Log was filled in with times as stated previously and I made a point of saying stop to start times,this was altered in front of me and ten minutes added,I have mentioned it before and the answer was that what we charge.
At £164 per hour inc landing fee its £23.33 more and if it was a twin (and it was explained when I flew the twin + 15 mins) it can be £100 or more extra !
Just peeves the life out of me when somebody tries to charge over the odds.
I intentionally put down on the log engine start time,flew the detail and engine stop time and tacho end time,total time was approx 40 mins,this was total time the engine ran and total time for use of the plane..
Log was filled in with times as stated previously and I made a point of saying stop to start times,this was altered in front of me and ten minutes added,I have mentioned it before and the answer was that what we charge.
At £164 per hour inc landing fee its £23.33 more and if it was a twin (and it was explained when I flew the twin + 15 mins) it can be £100 or more extra !
Just peeves the life out of me when somebody tries to charge over the odds.
If that's how they do it (and it's published somewhere) then that's how they do it.
If it wasn't explained to you, or not clearly displayed, in advance then that's uncool but perhaps not 'deceitful'. It's unlikely that:
1. They only charged you this because they thought they could get away with it.
2. They deliberately didn't tell you in advance.
Explain to them that they should make the billing system very clear in advance (rather than wait to be asked, as you didn't ask) to avoid future complaints...?
Safe flights, Sam.
If it wasn't explained to you, or not clearly displayed, in advance then that's uncool but perhaps not 'deceitful'. It's unlikely that:
1. They only charged you this because they thought they could get away with it.
2. They deliberately didn't tell you in advance.
Explain to them that they should make the billing system very clear in advance (rather than wait to be asked, as you didn't ask) to avoid future complaints...?
Safe flights, Sam.
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Chicken House,dual rate is more (obviously) and includes FI cost and landing and the +10 mins is stuck on top !
My whole point is the time stated was from start to stop no "clipping" times and don't think it fair to charge if the tacho may be slow !
Hobbit,flown there for 14 years and far to big to fly local ultralights,its only in the past year or so this has come into force.
And No Sam its not published and from what I have seen nobody questions it and just pays up.
My whole point is the time stated was from start to stop no "clipping" times and don't think it fair to charge if the tacho may be slow !
Hobbit,flown there for 14 years and far to big to fly local ultralights,its only in the past year or so this has come into force.
And No Sam its not published and from what I have seen nobody questions it and just pays up.
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As said, many charge wheels off to wheels on plus 10 and that is not too unfair as it includes taxi time but they seem to be charging taxi time twice!
In fact the AIRCRAFT hours are only wheels off to wheels on so a bit unfair to charge for taxi time anyway! Personally I would be looking at another way to go flying - but then I am in a group aircraft anyway so we can charge what WE decide and any surplus goes into the group funds.
In fact the AIRCRAFT hours are only wheels off to wheels on so a bit unfair to charge for taxi time anyway! Personally I would be looking at another way to go flying - but then I am in a group aircraft anyway so we can charge what WE decide and any surplus goes into the group funds.
"not published" - have you asked them where their rates are noted? They presumably have something written somewhere with all the prices of all the services they offer?
If not, then they should - but you should ask them first about this. Difficult to run a business without something as simple/important as this...
If not, then they should - but you should ask them first about this. Difficult to run a business without something as simple/important as this...
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Where I learnt: T/O to LDG +6 min (and a reasonable rate)
Where I voted with my feet: off-block to on-block (plus a higher rate)
Read elsewhere: Tacho time (with reasonable rates commensurate with that system)
T/O-LDG allows for a more careful warm-up procedure followed, valuable during winter. When charged per running hour, people tend to race through everything...
Instructor rates should be set so that they fit the system, 10min added for "nothing" sounds strange.
Is it more than other schools in the area when you add it all up ?
Where I voted with my feet: off-block to on-block (plus a higher rate)
Read elsewhere: Tacho time (with reasonable rates commensurate with that system)
T/O-LDG allows for a more careful warm-up procedure followed, valuable during winter. When charged per running hour, people tend to race through everything...
Instructor rates should be set so that they fit the system, 10min added for "nothing" sounds strange.
Is it more than other schools in the area when you add it all up ?
Last edited by ch.ess; 4th Jan 2017 at 14:15. Reason: (typos)
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We were charging for t/o to t/d but sadly evidence suggested club members were consistently erring in the direction of lower costs for them... so we've switched to tacho instead. Sad but necessary, though if it leads to more accurate reporting it could actually bring hourly rates down. Tacho at least means that taxy and holding time is cheap, if not free. I used to pay on Hobbs at a busy airfield and it hurt!
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I dont understand how they can charge taxi time when the engine is not running - or is there a downhill slope from the apron so you can taxi to the runway engine off??
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I dont understand how they can charge taxi time when the engine is not running - or is there a downhill slope from the apron so you can taxi to the runway engine off??
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They need £x per year for y usage of the aircraft. Whether they charge a higher rate for wheels up to wheels down, or a lower rate for engine start up to engine shutdown, or an intermediate rate for brakes off to brakes on, is up to them, as is whether they calculate taxy time by flight time plus ten minutes, or flight time by block time minutes ten minutes, or actually time taxy time by watch, or whatever.
For the same aircraft and the same level of service it'll even out, you'll pay the same amount for the same flying regardless of the charging algorithms.
For the same aircraft and the same level of service it'll even out, you'll pay the same amount for the same flying regardless of the charging algorithms.
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When I was a CFI, we would charge students for the time they put in their logbook. Of course, that technique is a little bit more tricky with renters. The industry default appears to be airborne time plus 5 minutes either side. You then fall into the trap of renters rushing on the ground.
I once considered a fixed rate/hour plus a rate for fuel used, the latter being a rough interpretation from tacho. The advantage here would be that renters wouldn't be racing around at 2500rpm all they time. Unfortunately, that idea proved too difficult to manage.
Back to the OP, I think it unethical for you to be charged engine running time when not taxiing.
I once considered a fixed rate/hour plus a rate for fuel used, the latter being a rough interpretation from tacho. The advantage here would be that renters wouldn't be racing around at 2500rpm all they time. Unfortunately, that idea proved too difficult to manage.
Back to the OP, I think it unethical for you to be charged engine running time when not taxiing.
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When I learned to fly airplane, I was charged engine running hours. I thought that was fair - I logged engine running hours.
When I learned to fly helicopter, I was charged engine running hours, less .1 hours per flight. The rationale of the training organization was that they did not want their students rushing through checks, so they would absorb that cost, to encourage good practice, and risk of an unsafe situation from something being missed. I liked that policy.
In the end, if you're paying for more aircraft operating expense than you are logging as the pilot, something is wrong.
When I learned to fly helicopter, I was charged engine running hours, less .1 hours per flight. The rationale of the training organization was that they did not want their students rushing through checks, so they would absorb that cost, to encourage good practice, and risk of an unsafe situation from something being missed. I liked that policy.
In the end, if you're paying for more aircraft operating expense than you are logging as the pilot, something is wrong.
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Sounds odd but I suppose that if the airport is big and or busy (mine has 11,000ft runway and lots of big jets) the taxi time coule be weird - so one would tend to benefit (I have had a 0.9 on the Hobbs but w/off to w/on of less than 30 minutes; so one would "win"
A smaller less busy airports with shorter taxi distances one would tend to lose.
The real reason for the w/off w/on thing is to get the benefit of the hours count for 50/100 hour checks - one only records w/off w/on (the tach takes care of engine times) probably delays the 50/100 by 5 to 10 hours overall.
That means for a busy renter their plane is more economic - so even if you seem to lose by a few minutes, you are benefiting form the renter's lower costs in the rate to which the hours are applied.
A smaller less busy airports with shorter taxi distances one would tend to lose.
The real reason for the w/off w/on thing is to get the benefit of the hours count for 50/100 hour checks - one only records w/off w/on (the tach takes care of engine times) probably delays the 50/100 by 5 to 10 hours overall.
That means for a busy renter their plane is more economic - so even if you seem to lose by a few minutes, you are benefiting form the renter's lower costs in the rate to which the hours are applied.
To avoid bad feeling from the users, regardless of the above mentioned charging methods, surely the best way is to charge by tacho time, where the tacho runs slower when taxiing or at low rpm, encouraging cruise at lower power settings. The operator then works out what that tacho time rate should be in order to cover costs and give the profit margin required. Or is that too simple!
Can I suggest that it really doesn't matter as long as it is CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYONE IN ADVANCE. It's the surprise that leaves a bad taste, not really the cost or method... As someone else has already mentioned, they all end up costing about the same because if not:
1. They go bust because they're not charging enough.
2. They make lots of money for a very short period and then go bust because they're charging too much.
1. They go bust because they're not charging enough.
2. They make lots of money for a very short period and then go bust because they're charging too much.