Reality of learning to fly and owning an aircraft

[chris1001]

For many years now I have had an interest in aviation. I nearly obtained my PPL twenty years ago but let it slip due to other commitments.

I now have the time and money to learn again with the intention of maybe purchasing a modern single engine aircraft like a Cirrus SR20 or better still a Piper Mirage or equivalent to travel across to France.

There are many things that put me off hence this post to gather thoughts from others who fly privately and especially those who own aircraft.

1. As I live in NE England the flying clubs up here only seem to operate antiquated aircraft. Does anybody know where I can learn on an aircraft that are under ten years old?

2. In my days of flying it was all about VOR's and DME's Etc. If modern aircraft are fitted with GPS technology, surely training has changed to incorporate new navigation aids?

3. Is it a pipe dream now to own and operate a private aircraft in the UK and particularly NE England. A group would be ideal but there are very few (if any) operating modern singles?

3. Anyone any idea on rough running/hourly operating costs for an SR20 or Piper Malibu in Northern England, say 100-150 hours per year flying. At first I would consider SR20 and maybe step up to Malibu when sufficient hours are accumulated. I am referring to things like hangarage, maintenance, fuel, insurance, fees for airways etc.

Please no sarcastic answers like "if you have to ask you cant afford". I am genuinely looking at investing a lot of money but just want reassurance before it is wasted on what could just be a pipe dream due to exorbitant costs and too much legislation in todays world.

Looking forward to CONSTRUCTIVE replies.

[Jonzarno]

I was in almost exactly your situation 10 years ago when I started my PPL. Immediately I got it, I moved on to an SR22, bought one in the US and did my instrument rating in it. I now fly about 250 hours a year in it.

As I live in the South, I can't really help with advice about training in the North East, but can help with advice about the process and Cirrus ownership. If you would like to chat about it, please let me know and I will PM you my phone number.

I hope this helps

[eckhard]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your post and welcome back to your PPL training!
I am a professional pilot (and aircraft owner). I have just a simple SEP, fixed gear, fixed prop. It gives me a lot of pleasure but financially it makes no sense at all!

Your aspirations are clearly at a higher level and I am sure you will enjoy owning and operating a Cirrus or Malibu. The costs will be high but you will have a very capable aircraft which will be fully capable of your 'mission', including flying across to France.

Now to try and answer your specific questions:

1/ Sorry, no idea. I live in France and my private flying is in the south of the UK.

2/ I would hope that a modern school would include GPS training but you will have to do some research to find the right location with the right fleet and equipment to meet your needs.

3/ I wouldn't say it's a pipe dream but it will be expensive!

4/ Bit of guesswork here but:
Hourly operating cost £300
Hangarage: £2500 p.a.
Maintenance: £5000 p.a.
Fuel: included in the hourly cost.
Insurance: £3000 p.a.
Fees: included in the hourly cost

So, total cost for 150 hours per year = £55,500 £370 per hour.

As I say, a bit of an educated guess on my part, based on 'scaling up' my costs.
It might be worth visiting likely airfields and chatting to the guys in the tower or clubhouse. They can put you in touch with owners of similar aircraft. There may be relevant adverts on the notice board as well.

As others have said, I wouldn't worry too much about the aircraft used for training. Get your PPL on a clapped out old spam can and then buy your Dream Machine, employ an experienced mentor-pilot and fly with them for 6 months.

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

[abgd]

Well, you're living in Newcastle so the obvious places to ask are Newcastle airport (some GA, but expensive) and other places like Eshott, Fishburn. Call them up and ask how much hangarage and landing fees would be. It'll take you an hour. You could do the same for insurers and ask for ballpark quotes. You won't need to pay airways fees if you're flying VFR as a PPL.

Fuel costs: look at how much fuel your chosen aircraft drinks per hour. Look up fuel prices, and multiply.

Maintenance costs are an issue - perhaps someone could give a ballpark figure for what the annual costs on an SR20 are likely to be (used or new?)

The formal syllabus doesn't include GPS (as far as I'm aware) but there's nothing to stop you getting someone to teach you to use it, if you need to.

You may be able to get someone to teach you on your own aircraft, so why not buy it before you complete your PPL? That would solve the 10 year issue. Why is it so important to you? Safety? I wouldn't worry myself.

[Jonzarno]

Maintenance costs are an issue - perhaps someone could give a ballpark figure for what the annual costs on an SR20 are likely to be (used or new?)

I can't speak for an SR20 but the last annual on my 11 year old N reg SR22 was £6.5k having flown 265 hours over the year.

You won't need to pay airways fees if you're flying VFR as a PPL.

I think all UK airways are class A airspace, so you can't fly VFR in them anyway. Assuming you have an IR and therefore can fly in class A, you don't pay airways fees for using them if you're in a SEP such as a Cirrus or PA28.

[rifruffian]

Owner ship of IFR capable airplane and acquisition of IFR flying skills is a great idea but it's not a quick job and some people just don't hack it.
Best preserve your ambition and start slow and simple, concentrating on first principles and basics. Perhaps buy and sell two airplanes during these early days, commensurate with your progress and skills level. I do not think investment in an advanced airplane is a good idea for a zero time pilot, as a starting point.

[rifruffian]

Me again, just realised you are not zero time. Still recommend some map and compass time in a simple aircraft and wait until you are personally qualified IFR before advanced aircraft ownership.

[chris1001]

Thanks for your constructive replies! Some great advice. I will definitely contact a local flying school but might even consider a block course abroad if anyone has any recommendations?

Without a doubt, I wouldn't be thinking of purchasing any aircraft until I had built up experience but didn't want to spend the money on PPL/IMC Etc. only to realise that owning an aircraft in the UK is just out of bounds.

Flying around the circuit in a clapped out Piper Warrior just doesn't really appeal to me and I know so may people who have been put off learning to fly after trial flights due to the age of the aircraft! Whilst I thoroughly enjoy all aspects of private flying, the point for me is to get from A to B as I would plan to fly up to 1000 miles at a time.

I guess my fixation with modern aircraft is reliability, fuel economy and safety. Every I time I pick up an aviation magazine whether UK or US, there is always a monthly section detailing incidents and it kind of puts me off! Yes they are great articles for learning from others mistakes but you wouldn't pick up Auto Express and read half a dozen pages of accident reports each month. I often wonder how safe private flying really is compared to car travel and to be honest, these incident reports kind of put me off!

Thanks again for keeping this thread constructive so far.

[n5296s]

I often wonder how safe private flying really is compared to car travel and to be honest, these incident reports kind of put me off!

If you just look at the raw accident rate private flying is less safe than driving, though not much. However then you have to look at causes. If you never

-- do silly low altitude show-off flying
-- get low on fuel (I have never landed my 182 with less than 20 gallons in the tanks)
-- fly VFR into IMC

you have immensely improved your chances. And, unlike driving, you can't be killed by some idiot coming round a blind bend on the wrong side of the road. Even a perfectly safe driver is only about 50% safer than an average one.

If Auto Express ran proportionately as many articles about fatal car accidents as the flying mags do, each issue would be 1000 pages. That's why they don't. Also, pilots take the attitude that you can learn from other people's mistakes. Drivers, generally, take the view that they are so much better than all the other drivers that they have nothing to learn. The respective magazines pander to the nature of their readers.

I can't comment on your costs in the UK. My 1980 TR182 (a wonderful cross country aircraft, with modern avionics) costs me about $160/hr in direct costs, including maintenance and engine fund. Plus hangarage, insurance, depreciation, and upgrades. My guess is that to translate this to a UK cost, assume $1=£1 and double it.

Unlike cars, modern planes have the same fuel economy as old ones - the engines are the same. Personally, having a little SR20 time, I found it seriously underpowered and wouldn't touch one with a thousand foot pole as a purchaser, though the SR22 seems a decent, if pricy, aircraft. Safety also is 90% about the pilot and 10% about the aircraft - assuming you maintain it properly of course (and if you don't, that still about the pilot and not the aircraft). In fact the Cirrus generally has a worse accident record than, for example, the 182 - despite its airframe parachute.

If I was in the market for a new(ish) airplane, I'be looking at the DA40. It has an excellent safety record, it's s delight to fly, and the performance is plenty for trips to France.

[9 lives]

I guess my fixation with modern aircraft is reliability, fuel economy and safety. Every I time I pick up an aviation magazine whether UK or US, there is always a monthly section detailing incidents and it kind of puts me off! Yes they are great articles for learning from others mistakes but you wouldn't pick up Auto Express and read half a dozen pages of accident reports each month. I often wonder how safe private flying really is compared to car travel and to be honest, these incident reports kind of put me off

Look at the causes of the accidents. How often was the vintage of the plane, or it's airworthiness even a factor in the accident? (Not often, I can assure you).

Buying a "new" plane does not insulate you from difficulty. A well maintained "legacy" aircraft will be every bit as safe and reliable, when similarly equipped. In fairness, I am not a fan of airframe parachutes, and am less inclined toward composite airframes, though they have their good points.

I have the opinion that airframe parachutes create a false sense of security for less experienced pilots. Many accidents, and more of the fatal ones occur in conditions which are not optimum for parachute deployment. But, that's a different (and passionate) discussion. From my perspective, I have more than 7000 hours in more than 250 GA aircraft of 80 types, and have never wished for a moment that the aircraft I was flying had an airframe parachute (and I've had four engine failures in flight - but you did not want to know that).

Find a modest airplane for a start, I'm partial to the 172/182 for this purpose. The PA-28 series are fine aircraft too. They are good, 'cause every instructor can fly one, and train you in it. Their characteristics are understood, and maintenance is commonly available. There is lots of none OEM support, and parts, so you are not held captive by the OEM. New types hove not created a large enough market for themselves to inspire a lot aftermarket support. That can translate to less choice (more cost) to you. Aside from new flash, they don't offer much that a legacy aircraft can't do for less. And, cost to insure - higher premiums for higher hull value.

It's true that a Cirrus or Mirage will be very well suited to a long cross country across Europe, but that does not exclude a more modest aircraft either. A friend and I flew his C 182 amphibian from Bergen to Dubrovnik and back last July no problem. But realistically, it'll be a while before you're venturing such trips, so grow with it.

I bought my first aircraft (a C 150) 30 years ago. I still own it. The next two aircraft I bought are both slower, on more power, but excellent for a long distance trip - if you're patient! I just bought a 1959 C 172, for restoration. I'm not contemplating any composite aircraft, nor parachute systems.

Learn the basics well, and in a modest aircraft. Learn to fly more with less. As you need, move up in equipment, that way you'll know why you did!

[The Ancient Geek]

There are good reasons why basic training is almost always done on simple aircraft such as the 152, 172 or PA28. They are easy to fly with no surprises to bite the inexperienced student. Once you have the basic skills sorted to pass your PPL you can build experience and move up to more complex types with CS props and retractable gear. Higher performance types such as the SR22 are slippery beasts and more demanding of your handling skills.

School and club aircraft are usually fairly old but they should be well maintained and reliable. They do a lot of hours and take a fair bit of abuse from students so they need to be rugged and the interiors tend to be a bit tired from use - some more than others.
The common factor is that they need to be cheap to run because PPL training prices are very competitive.

Insurance companies are not going to like a low hours pilot in a new SR22 so rather build your hours and experience renting until you are properly ready for a high performance type and the insurance companies think that you are an acceptable risk.

[RatherBeFlying]

Cirrus Factory Training

is on offer in several different flavors.

IFR is necessary if you will be making long trips with any semblance of a schedule. But that will take just about the same amount of work as your initial PPL - just so you know

You may also want to consider putting the airplane on the N register. The more expensive the aircraft, the more worthwhile this may turn out.

Flying a slick aircraft requires you to unlearn habits developed in pedestrian aircraft that can bite you in slick ones.

I wouldn't consider them harder to fly so much as easier to screw up in

But pilots have been known to bend even 172s. No matter what you fly take it seriously.

[Jonzarno]

There is several interesting articles about why the dentist killer Cirrus has a higher accident rate

Erm actually it doesn't.



What does kill pilots is a lack of training and discipline and that is sadly all too evident across the GA fleet. As can be seen from the chart: Cirrus did have a problem with this over ten years ago and they and the Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association (COPA) continue to address it successfully.

[Mickey Kaye]

1. As I live in NE England the flying clubs up here only seem to operate antiquated aircraft. Does anybody know where I can learn on an aircraft that are under ten years old?


I can’t think of anywhere. That's not totally the flying schools fault as no cost effective training aircraft have been made for 30 odd years.

2. In my days of flying it was all about VOR's and DME's Etc. If modern aircraft are fitted with GPS technology, surely training has changed to incorporate new navigation aids?

You would think so wouldn’t you. But no the test requirements are largely from the 2nd world war. Schools will teach GPS but you will not be tested on it. Again this isn’t really the schools fault.

3. Is it a pipe dream now to own and operate a private aircraft in the UK and particularly NE England. A group would be ideal but there are very few (if any) operating modern singles?

I certainly know of one

4. Anyone any idea on rough running/hourly operating costs for an SR20 or Piper Malibu in Northern England, say 100-150 hours per year flying. At first I would consider SR20 and maybe step up to Malibu when sufficient hours are accumulated. I am referring to things like hangarage, maintenance, fuel, insurance, fees for airways etc

I don’t but I know a group that operates a SR22 and is considering moving to a PA46. I could put you in the right direction if you drop us a pm

[letpmar]

Possible route

Originally Posted by Mickey Kaye

1. As I live in NE England the flying clubs up here only seem to operate antiquated aircraft. Does anybody know where I can learn on an aircraft that are under ten years old?


I can’t think of anywhere. That's not totally the flying schools fault as no cost effective training aircraft have been made for 30 odd years.

2. In my days of flying it was all about VOR's and DME's Etc. If modern aircraft are fitted with GPS technology, surely training has changed to incorporate new navigation aids?

You would think so wouldn’t you. But no the test requirements are largely from the 2nd world war. Schools will teach GPS but you will not be tested on it. Again this isn’t really the schools fault.

3. Is it a pipe dream now to own and operate a private aircraft in the UK and particularly NE England. A group would be ideal but there are very few (if any) operating modern singles?

I certainly know of one

4. Anyone any idea on rough running/hourly operating costs for an SR20 or Piper Malibu in Northern England, say 100-150 hours per year flying. At first I would consider SR20 and maybe step up to Malibu when sufficient hours are accumulated. I am referring to things like hangarage, maintenance, fuel, insurance, fees for airways etc

I don’t but I know a group that operates a SR22 and is considering moving to a PA46. I could put you in the right direction if you drop us a pm

Just one option to look at which might suit you is the permit to fly/ LAA route. Compared the aircraft you are looking at they are much less to buy. There are many more younger examples out there and generally they are much better equipped than the older GA fleet. I don't want to get into an argument about traditional or glass, each to there own. But long term what you are hoping to fly will probably have glass so this would seem to me to be a good start. If you own a permit aircraft you can learn to fly in it and it will do your mission very well. I fly all over Europe in mine. Even IFR and night is now possible. You might well find it would do everything you want or it could be a good platform to move on to something bigger. Mix and match I think works well, own and fly day to day in something smaller and rent when you need the big boys toys. I am in the south but would be happy to take you for a flight.

[abgd]

Agreed. You can pick up a two seater Jodel for 12-15k. My aircraft is fifty years old and would sell for 5-6k. Aircraft prices are plummeting at the moment.

If I had 10 million in the bank, I'd probably buy myself a Cirrus and a Vampire. I think there probably is something to be said for an airframe parachute and the cabins in modern aircraft are safer, but slower aircraft are safer than faster aircraft so it's swings and roundabouts.

One point I have to take issue with: flying is many times more dangerous than driving. More on a par with motorcycling. I do agree that you are master of your fate to a much greater extent than you are on the roads though.

[Martin_123]

my 2c - you want to learn on old robust aircraft because they give you a better understanding how things work. Once you know your basics and can handle a nearly electricity free tin can, by all means go and spend your money on whatever you can afford. Thing is - stuff fails.. we know that.. your electric trim can run away, your glass cockpit can go blank and so on.. when that happens, would you rather pull the breaker and fly the thing using skills you acquired on a basic 172 or would you rather just pull the chute and end up wherever wind takes you?

[Forfoxake]

Lots of great advice here imho particularly: DO NOT PAY UP FRONT! Also agree that LAA aircraft are well worth investigating. Many of the modern LAA types are faster, cheaper and nicer to fly than a typical spam can, although you might need to get your hands a little dirty!

[9 lives]

I agree that the poor reputation of the Cirrus was greatly improved by much more robust pilot training - any aircraft will be more safe flown by a well trained and mentored pilot. Some more advance aircraft, and aircraft which promote their safety features interest newer pilots with the image of making flying more safe. It is the well trained pilot who makes flying safe, rather than the plane itself. A plane in poor condition can certainly make flying more dangerous, so have a more simple plane, which is more easy to maintain well.

Non certified aircraft can be great, but remember, they're non certified for a reason - they have not been shown to meet the design requirements which are the standard for a "safe" plane. That in no way means that those aircraft are not entirely safe, nor cannot meet those standards, just that they have not been shown to meet. So you may have a learning curve, and you may have an aircraft which differs from the "safe" plane you trained in. In some cases, that difference could be really great, but you, as the pilot of the non certified aircraft, are responsible for managing those differences safely - might require more skill (which is always a good thing!).

[rifruffian]

GA.....

Yes meldex you point out that GA antics and airliner reliability are different things but lets bear in mind that frequently GA gets into the places that no airliner can fit into......