Contacting the CAA
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They have sent you misleading data
This data is NOT about same day applications - it was specifically asked in the FOI Request fro the QUEUED applications. I did not ask for, and therefore did not receive information on the processing of same day, turn up and wait, license rating issues or license changes.
In the end its the CAA or nothing, poor service encourages more people to turn up and spend £80
Ask for data from a FOI request, which you then want to protect them from anyway!!
Im not protecting anyone other than the fact that the CAA responded to my Complaint and my FOI as a single item (which they should not have done, they should have been treated separately under law) and so there is quite a bit of personal information in their single reply to me.
I'm sure the executive must be quaking.
At the time of recording the FOI and the Complaint I had a license issue deadline, which I had communicated to the CAA in writing several times, and was waiting for my license to be returned to leave the country. They had not once acknowledged this and so I wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with - as it happens, it was in a queue of 1392 applications...
In response to my complaint, which was specific and detailed in nature, it was upheld and I received an apology.
In respect of your complaint, I agree that the service you received, and the difficultly you had contacting us throughout the application period was unsatisfactory. Our licensing management team is very apologetic and they are working on improvements.
Last edited by GBEBZ; 28th Nov 2016 at 18:18. Reason: Add the word license to stop people being picky
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I assume then, IMC/IR(R) cannot be issued on the spot then?
FAQ: https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...unter-service/
The CAA offers a ‘Same Day’ counter service for the following:
Conversion to EASA licences
Addition of a type or class rating to a flight crew licence
Renewal of a type or class rating to a flight crew licence
Removal of a restriction from a flight crew licence
Revalidation or Renewal of a flight crew licence
Change of address
Inclusion of a Night Rating
Inclusion of an Instructor Rating
Removal of restrictions from the Instructor Rating
Conversion to EASA licences
Addition of a type or class rating to a flight crew licence
Renewal of a type or class rating to a flight crew licence
Removal of a restriction from a flight crew licence
Revalidation or Renewal of a flight crew licence
Change of address
Inclusion of a Night Rating
Inclusion of an Instructor Rating
Removal of restrictions from the Instructor Rating
We are unable to provide a same day service for application for licence issue or upgrades, or any other service not listed above; however the applications may be handed in at the Public Counter and will be subject to the 10 working days turnaround service.
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Surely the pipeline should be:
0. Before anything 1 staff takes your money
1. Staff 2 checks licence requirements against provided evidence (checklist).
2. Staff 2 presses print (for licence + envelope)
3. Staff 2 signs licence
4. Staff 2 puts items in envelope
5. Staff 2 sticks on label
6. Staff 2 puts envelope in the trolley
7. Staff 3 takes trolley to postman waiting at the door to pick it all up
Single licence application should take a whole.... 10-15 minutes from start to finish (applications for ratings to be applied: ie night probably take less than 5minutes in all). Assuming that the average is 40 hours per week in most jobs (i think the CAA is different though); That would otherwise be 160 licences per week per person working. Hence if you 18 people working on applications alone that'd be: 2,880 licences per week. (if an NHS GP can find out what's wrong with you, give you advice, write in the notes, print & sign a prescription in 10minutes or less - I don't think its impossible!)
That means that they could clear the backlog in half a week!
OK, let's be fair - they only work 6 hours per day, out of the 18, 2 are on leave, 1 is ill, so only 15 are in the office, 2 are managers who oversee their colleagues and don't help in a time of need, 1 is a phone operator answering people who keep asking "where is my licence?", 1 person is in charge of taking the money and 1 person is the admin support staff (ie making tea / putting packages in the mail... etc...). Meaning you end up with only 10 people actually dealing with the paperwork. If it takes them 20 minutes for each application, that's 90 applications per week per staff. Or a total of 900 applications processed per week. In other words, clear the backlog + new arrivals in two weeks, and then only need to process less than 30 applications per week (or estimated 10 hours per week) just to make sure that they're clearing the backlog. Also means that they can work 2 days a week and still earn the same money and we don't have to wait for our licences!
I bet they process the licences on the day they arrive, and then put them on a pile "to be sent on stated date" and then the piles only get sent several weeks after they've been processed!
0. Before anything 1 staff takes your money
1. Staff 2 checks licence requirements against provided evidence (checklist).
2. Staff 2 presses print (for licence + envelope)
3. Staff 2 signs licence
4. Staff 2 puts items in envelope
5. Staff 2 sticks on label
6. Staff 2 puts envelope in the trolley
7. Staff 3 takes trolley to postman waiting at the door to pick it all up
Single licence application should take a whole.... 10-15 minutes from start to finish (applications for ratings to be applied: ie night probably take less than 5minutes in all). Assuming that the average is 40 hours per week in most jobs (i think the CAA is different though); That would otherwise be 160 licences per week per person working. Hence if you 18 people working on applications alone that'd be: 2,880 licences per week. (if an NHS GP can find out what's wrong with you, give you advice, write in the notes, print & sign a prescription in 10minutes or less - I don't think its impossible!)
That means that they could clear the backlog in half a week!
OK, let's be fair - they only work 6 hours per day, out of the 18, 2 are on leave, 1 is ill, so only 15 are in the office, 2 are managers who oversee their colleagues and don't help in a time of need, 1 is a phone operator answering people who keep asking "where is my licence?", 1 person is in charge of taking the money and 1 person is the admin support staff (ie making tea / putting packages in the mail... etc...). Meaning you end up with only 10 people actually dealing with the paperwork. If it takes them 20 minutes for each application, that's 90 applications per week per staff. Or a total of 900 applications processed per week. In other words, clear the backlog + new arrivals in two weeks, and then only need to process less than 30 applications per week (or estimated 10 hours per week) just to make sure that they're clearing the backlog. Also means that they can work 2 days a week and still earn the same money and we don't have to wait for our licences!
I bet they process the licences on the day they arrive, and then put them on a pile "to be sent on stated date" and then the piles only get sent several weeks after they've been processed!
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Sent my license alteration stuff in on 10th Oct. Got it back on 22 Nov, so assuming a day each side for post that's 31 working days. I was told 45 working days so maybe things are picking up.
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Thanks GBEBZ,
Looks like I wasn't toooo far off! Although I'd expect they could definitely clear the backlog (if they wanted) very easily... Shame that people don't strive for improvement.
ak7274,
Did you enjoy doing the rating? I've been tinkering with the idea of doing the course!
thing
That's still 31 working days (6 weeks and 1 day) for a bit of paper to confirm that you're able to do what you've been assessed to do (and passed). I find that a little concerning!
Maoraigh1
That looks like something that should have been around decades ago! Although a little concerning that its only valid for 8 weeks... What happens next year when the waiting times will be 16 weeks?
Looks like I wasn't toooo far off! Although I'd expect they could definitely clear the backlog (if they wanted) very easily... Shame that people don't strive for improvement.
ak7274,
Did you enjoy doing the rating? I've been tinkering with the idea of doing the course!
thing
That's still 31 working days (6 weeks and 1 day) for a bit of paper to confirm that you're able to do what you've been assessed to do (and passed). I find that a little concerning!
Maoraigh1
That looks like something that should have been around decades ago! Although a little concerning that its only valid for 8 weeks... What happens next year when the waiting times will be 16 weeks?
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Alex,
I have to say that I didn't particularly enjoy the course, but that was all down to me. I just wasn't prepared for it at all. I didn't study as much as I should have done. The course is no cake walk, so if you do apply for the course be prepared to study all the pre course material. There is a lot of content to cram in, just in a week, so homework is dished out like sweets.
Perhaps because I haven't been in any sort of training environment for a lot more years than I care to remember, It needed more force to hammer things home.
The instruction I received from Cookie was brilliant and he was very patient. The guys at CFT Tatenhill were very supportive and thanks to Craig for passing me.
I am looking forward to using the rating when it arrives, but maybe the wait will allow me to gather my thoughts prior to using it.
Glad I did it though.
I have to say that I didn't particularly enjoy the course, but that was all down to me. I just wasn't prepared for it at all. I didn't study as much as I should have done. The course is no cake walk, so if you do apply for the course be prepared to study all the pre course material. There is a lot of content to cram in, just in a week, so homework is dished out like sweets.
Perhaps because I haven't been in any sort of training environment for a lot more years than I care to remember, It needed more force to hammer things home.
The instruction I received from Cookie was brilliant and he was very patient. The guys at CFT Tatenhill were very supportive and thanks to Craig for passing me.
I am looking forward to using the rating when it arrives, but maybe the wait will allow me to gather my thoughts prior to using it.
Glad I did it though.
Thread Starter
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So, this Information Notice IN–2016/101 essentially says that if I print out form SG1100, I am allowed to exercise the privileges of my license (which I passed skills test 8/11, RT on the 22/11, sent off for on the 24/11 and CAA received on the 25/11) before it actually gets issued, providing it's signed by an examiner? Or have I read that incorrectly?
Thank you
Very interesting with the staff numbers etc, GBEBZ, would you mind PMing me a copy of the response, as I'd love to have a read to better understand what's going on?
Thanks again
Thank you
Very interesting with the staff numbers etc, GBEBZ, would you mind PMing me a copy of the response, as I'd love to have a read to better understand what's going on?
Thanks again
tobster911, no you may not! RTFM!!
Such Temporary Certificates (TCs) are valid only for UK CAA Part-FCL (or JAR FCL) licence holders and SFIs whose Competent Authority is the UK CAA. TCs are therefore not available for initial issue of licences...
This data is NOT about same day applications - it was specifically asked in the FOI Request fro the QUEUED applications. I did not ask for, and therefore did not receive information on the processing of same day, turn up and wait, license rating issues or license changes.
Another more recent example, week ending 20th November they received 239 new applications, and only processed 267. Thats a net reduction in the queue of only 28, leaving 851 in the queue at the end of that week.
28 applications between 18 staff members is 0.3 applications processed per day per staff member processed. again draw from that what you will...
28 applications between 18 staff members is 0.3 applications processed per day per staff member processed. again draw from that what you will...
Its nothing to do with making the CAA quake. Its about being open and honest with the CAA Customers (US!) on why INITIAL ISSUE professional licenses this year took EIGHT weeks to issue, Private Licenses too on average longer than ever...
In response to my complaint, which was specific and detailed in nature, it was upheld and I received an apology.
It seems they are doing what they can, and yet still failing to provide a timely service ... year after year.
I suspect it's less about the people and more about a rigid and unyielding process.
If the checking was farmed out as a formal delegation to the Examiners or Training Organisations, and the CAA then accepted that, there'd be less of a bottleneck. Of course, that would necessitate a simple and unambiguous process for the Examiners to follow, and as we are often told the paperwork is hardly that at the moment.
If the checking was farmed out as a formal delegation to the Examiners or Training Organisations, and the CAA then accepted that, there'd be less of a bottleneck. Of course, that would necessitate a simple and unambiguous process for the Examiners to follow, and as we are often told the paperwork is hardly that at the moment.
Last edited by hoodie; 30th Nov 2016 at 08:42.
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Can offer you some confusion from the NPPL (M) world!
The BMAA processes all initial licence issues on behalf of the CAA, apart from cheque cashing/database entry/licence printing/posting.
On their website, they provide a Where's My Paperwork page.
If no problems with the application, the target is two working days - although you can see that they very often do it in one working day!
British Microlight Aircraft Association,NPPL Applications,Sub-Page
Of course, they then email the CAA the details and the new pilot has to wait over a month for the CAA just to print out and post the licence!
As I understand it, the CAA then visit the BMAA a few times a year and pull some of the applications out of the file and audit them to make sure the BMAA are getting it correct. They aren't checking each and every one before issue. So the CAA literally does just have to print and post.
As for time, it does take me a few hours to make sure a student's application form is filled in and correct, and scan everything in case it is lost in the post, and file student records/form copy/cert ID copy etc in the records storage. But then I am not a professional paper pusher.
Again, for information, the BMAA checklist is here:
http://www.bmaa.org/files/microlight..._issue_6.1.pdf
I send a completed copy of it in with my student's applications, although I am sure they then redo it to make certain all is OK.
It may only be a microlight licence, but it is a lot to the people who achieve it.
The BMAA works very hard to make sure the paperwork is completed speedily for its members (both licences and aircraft permit renewals) since that is often the only contact it has with its members and it is determined to create a good impression. It has a monopoly.
The CAA seems determined to confirm to newly-qualified pilots what all that the old soaks say about them in the clubhouse! It also has a monopoly!
BMAA gets £102 for its work (including posting logbooks back to people), the CAA gets £50.
Perhaps what people would focus on is "benchmarking", both on service price and service delivery.
Perhaps the CAA should, by law, be given "performance indicators" linked to other document providers, such as passports and driving licences, who also suffer from peak surges.
The cost of a NPPL(M) for instance, at £152, is significantly more than an initial driving licence or a passport!
And takes significantly longer!
The BMAA processes all initial licence issues on behalf of the CAA, apart from cheque cashing/database entry/licence printing/posting.
On their website, they provide a Where's My Paperwork page.
If no problems with the application, the target is two working days - although you can see that they very often do it in one working day!
British Microlight Aircraft Association,NPPL Applications,Sub-Page
Of course, they then email the CAA the details and the new pilot has to wait over a month for the CAA just to print out and post the licence!
As I understand it, the CAA then visit the BMAA a few times a year and pull some of the applications out of the file and audit them to make sure the BMAA are getting it correct. They aren't checking each and every one before issue. So the CAA literally does just have to print and post.
As for time, it does take me a few hours to make sure a student's application form is filled in and correct, and scan everything in case it is lost in the post, and file student records/form copy/cert ID copy etc in the records storage. But then I am not a professional paper pusher.
Again, for information, the BMAA checklist is here:
http://www.bmaa.org/files/microlight..._issue_6.1.pdf
I send a completed copy of it in with my student's applications, although I am sure they then redo it to make certain all is OK.
It may only be a microlight licence, but it is a lot to the people who achieve it.
The BMAA works very hard to make sure the paperwork is completed speedily for its members (both licences and aircraft permit renewals) since that is often the only contact it has with its members and it is determined to create a good impression. It has a monopoly.
The CAA seems determined to confirm to newly-qualified pilots what all that the old soaks say about them in the clubhouse! It also has a monopoly!
BMAA gets £102 for its work (including posting logbooks back to people), the CAA gets £50.
Perhaps what people would focus on is "benchmarking", both on service price and service delivery.
Perhaps the CAA should, by law, be given "performance indicators" linked to other document providers, such as passports and driving licences, who also suffer from peak surges.
The cost of a NPPL(M) for instance, at £152, is significantly more than an initial driving licence or a passport!
And takes significantly longer!
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...then you haven't tried HMRC.
Time Taken: 3 mins including typing and waiting time.
Cost: Zero....
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keeflyer,
"It fills me with dread whenever I have to deal with them, which unfortunately will be for my night rating shortly."
You might be in luck, because..........................................
The CAA like keeping people in the dark!
Boom! Boom!
"It fills me with dread whenever I have to deal with them, which unfortunately will be for my night rating shortly."
You might be in luck, because..........................................
The CAA like keeping people in the dark!
Boom! Boom!
