Touring motor glider ppl

[cmsglider]

hello all,

i just registered , although I have been reading the forum for a long time.

I started ppl in a single engine piston, at the moment I have 15 hours logged. I am considering changing the flight school, I am not very satisfied with my current school. Going throughout some old threads in this forum I found it is possible to get ppl in a touring motor glider . My long term goal in the flying world is not becoming a commercial pilot, just flying for fun and getting along the way some interesting ratings such as aerobatic and seaplane. Also I have heard that starting with gliders makes you a better pilot in the long run, I don't know to what extend this is true however I love the idea of shutting down the engine and just enjoy flying with no engine noise. so my question is : if i continue now with the TMG school will the hours that I already have logged in the sep count towards the 45 h minimum.
forgot to mention that this will be all done in an EASA country,

thanks alot!

[BEagle]

if i continue now with the TMG school will the hours that I already have logged in the sep count towards the 45 h minimum.

This was proposed back in Dec 2014 in NPA-2014/29(A). But we are STILL waiting for the Comment Response Document, let alone the EASA Opinion or the Commission's Decision...

The idea was that you could train in SEP and/or TMG; the Class Rating which would ultimately be included in your licence would be for the Class in which you passed the PPL Skill Test.

Perhaps by the time you're ready to take your Skill Test, this will have become law....

[Jan Olieslagers]

I think TMG's are Annex 2, which means there are regulated nationally, i.e. outside EASA ruling. The first thing to know is which national ruleset you would be applying.

[Piltdown Man]

Any flying will make you a better pilot but to become really good you have to learn from and with others. You do this in competitions and organised flying events, preferably within a club. However, one of the unfortunate facts of learning in such an environment is that the more you learn, the more ignorant you become. It takes ages to realise how much there is to know and comparatively how little we have actually learnt.

Best of luck,

PM

[cmsglider]

thanks all!

Originally Posted by BEagle

...
Perhaps by the time you're ready to take your Skill Test, this will have become law....

It will be the first time bureaucracy works fast when I actually need it.

Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers

...The first thing to know is which national ruleset you would be applying.

I will do the training in Hungary. At some point in my PPL course I was told I could only change type of aeroplane once, that's why I was worried a change of class might not be allowed at all . Anyways I will ask the new school in person in a few days, and I will write here what they tell me.

Originally Posted by Piltdown Man

Any flying will make you a better pilot but to become really good you have to learn from and with others. You do this in competitions and organised flying events, preferably within a club. However, one of the unfortunate facts of learning in such an environment is that the more you learn, the more ignorant you become. It takes ages to realise how much there is to know and comparatively how little we have actually learnt.

Best of luck,

PM

Like in every field in life,the more you know the more you become aware of all you don't know

[DeltaV]

Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers

I think TMG's are Annex 2, which means there are regulated nationally, i.e. outside EASA ruling.

I'm pretty sure that's not correct. Certainly some TMGs are EASA types and without checking I'd guess that probably all are.
Just to make life difficult EASA no longer list Annex II types and restrict themselves to listing only EASA types. Very inward looking!

[460]

EASA's regulations certainly do include all sorts of provisions for TMG flying.
I might even guess that most motor gliders in Europe fall within EASA as TMGs.

Separately, there are some motor gliders that fall outside EASA.

[BEagle]

REGULATION (EU) 2015/445 of 17 March 2015

cmsglider - good news! A BGA TMG guru has reminded me that things have changed for the better!

Commission Regulation (EU) 2015/445 of 17 Mar 2015 has already amended the aircrew regulation, so that the experience requirements may be gained in aeroplanes or TMGs:

In FCL.210.A, point (a) is replaced by the following;

(a) Applicants for a PPL(A) shall have completed at least 45 hours of flight instruction in aeroplanes or TMGs, 5 of which may have been completed in an FSTD, including at least:

(1) 25 hours of dual flight instruction; and

(2) 10 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 5 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made.

Hence your SEP training (if gained after Apr 2012...) will now count towards a PPL with TMG Class Rating.

(Thanks, Andy!).

[cmsglider]

thanks a lot BEagle and Andy .

Now I can continue my TMG journey

[gondukin]

Originally Posted by BEagle

cmsglider - good news! A BGA TMG guru has reminded me that things have changed for the better!

Commission Regulation (EU) 2015/445 of 17 Mar 2015 has already amended the aircrew regulation, so that the experience requirements may be gained in aeroplanes or TMGs:



Hence your SEP training (if gained after Apr 2012...) will now count towards a PPL with TMG Class Rating.

(Thanks, Andy!).

I've just done my NPPL SLMG with OSF at Enstone using the BGA cross credit and stumbled across this thread. I have never seen it mentioned before that you can do a PPL(A) on TMG but sure enough there it is. That begs the question - is it possible to upgrade a LAPL(A) on a TMG, or is it only available ab initio? The only mention I can find is as follows which suggests not (my emphasis):

Applicants for a PPL(A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL(A)

Also, would converting from a PPL(A) on TMG to an SEP just be differences training, similar to the NPPL? Coverting on the LAPL specifically requires 3 hours plus a skills test, but I can't see any mention of it for the PPL.

[460]

This is recommended Gondukin,

1. Add SSEA to your NPPL(A)

OSF are fine for this; there are plenty of others.

2. Convert your NPPL(A) with SLMG & SSEA to a LAPL(A) with TMG & SEP

Paperwork & cash only

3. Upgrade* your LAPL(A) TMG & SEP to PPL(A) TMG & SEP

This is where the minimum of 15 hrs aeroplanes comes in
Google: 'FCL.210.A PPL(A) - Experience requirements and crediting'

* I would call it a downgrade

4. Within that reference, you will also find an alternative route from LAPL(S) to PPL(A) via TMG flying.

Enjoy

[planesandthings]

Originally Posted by 460

This is recommended Gondukin,

1. Add SSEA to your NPPL(A)

I am in a similar situation.

This route closes soon. You must have your SSEA on your NPPL by April 8th 2018. After that date you'd need to do the EASA conversion 3 hours + skills test as you'd be working to EASA regs and licences.

Be aware that upgrading to a LAPL is easy but as a new LAPL licence holder there's the rolling recency requirements (12 hours PIC in previous 24 months) to meet before using the new licence. I have asked around and no one knows where I stand with this as the regulations are not designed for new NPPL holders having to convert immediately.

[gondukin]

Thanks for the advice I mentioned to OSF when I started I was looking to do the SSEA and am planning to speak to the CFI this week. I passed the GST for SLMG yesterday and am moving as quickly as time, weather and ability allows! OSF have been very supportive so far.

The post by BEagle just opened up the possibility in my mind there may be a route from LAPL (A) TMG to a PPL (A) on a cheaper TMG and then doing a type conversion to SEP afterwards, rather than converting now and then doing the upgrade on a more expensive group A. Part FCL 210.A was where I checked BEagle's info and indeed it says you can do a PPL from scratch on a TMG or aeroplane. However in reference to a LAPL upgrade it only mentions aeroplane. Given that TMG is not explicitly specified then I guess it doesn't exist as an upgrade path, which seems a bit daft.

[460]

Gondukin,
yes, daft indeed.
I believe it to be nothing more than an EASA drafting cockup.
Clarification that entire PPL(A) could be done on TMG was a bit of an afterthought; I think this bit was simply missed.

Suggestion: ask the CAA.
Use the entire PPL(A) on TMG as a precedent (FCL.210.A(a)),
request that they are happy for you similarly do the conversion on TMG (FCL.210.A(b))

References are from the 'Aircrew Regulation': Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011. amended up to M5.

Please, please, let us know how you get on.

[Chuck Glider]

Frankly, the whole thing is daft. It's no more than a bureaucratic botch up to make life more complicated and expensive than it need be. The old brown ICAO PPL made no such artificial distinctions. You were licensed to fly a single engine aircraft up to 5700kg, and that was it. True, there was something identified as a SLMG but in truth no one seemed to have any clear idea of what that was.

I'll accept that weight shift and paragliding/paramotoring is a different ball game but that's about it. All this EASA complication and ring fencing is just job creation and obstruction...IMO.