Cretin in the circuit
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Cretin in the circuit
I need to vent my spleen on this one. It won't do any good but I might feel better as a result.
Flew to Sandown, Isle of Wight today. Lovely strip to visit btw. V busy, the world and her partner had chosen to fly there, it felt like Heathrow quite often with one on the runway, one on final, one on base and at least one downwind at any given time.
They have an A/G service, which clearly gave 05 L/H. Joining instructions as published are let down to circuit height in the bay, cross wind join.
So I'm descending over the bay and get confused when I see a plane on the ground that wasn't there a moment ago at the far end of 05 looking like it's backtracking quite fast. You've guessed it, he had landed on 23.
There was a fairly exasperated radio operator telling him this, at which our hero was arguing that it wasn't his fault, he couldn't see the numbers on the ground.
To be fair, there aren't any numbers on the strip - nor are there are on many grass strips. But even in the absence of these, (a) he would have ignored his DI, (b) should surely have wondered why he was going a different direction to the rest of the circuit traffic, (c) on inspection of the windsock (of which there is one at each end of the runway) might have wondered why the prevailing landing direction was a tailwind and (d) might have thought his approach speed was a little fast.
Now, we all make mistakes, and all feel stupid when we do, especially when witnessed by an airfield teeming with pilots. But...FFS, this is a serious one and the time was right to say 'sorry' and to simply obey the instruction to exit the runway to the right 'urgently'. He did eventually exit but with no sense of urgency.
When in a hole - especially one that could have fatal implications - it's time to stop digging. I hope he learned from this one.
Flew to Sandown, Isle of Wight today. Lovely strip to visit btw. V busy, the world and her partner had chosen to fly there, it felt like Heathrow quite often with one on the runway, one on final, one on base and at least one downwind at any given time.
They have an A/G service, which clearly gave 05 L/H. Joining instructions as published are let down to circuit height in the bay, cross wind join.
So I'm descending over the bay and get confused when I see a plane on the ground that wasn't there a moment ago at the far end of 05 looking like it's backtracking quite fast. You've guessed it, he had landed on 23.
There was a fairly exasperated radio operator telling him this, at which our hero was arguing that it wasn't his fault, he couldn't see the numbers on the ground.
To be fair, there aren't any numbers on the strip - nor are there are on many grass strips. But even in the absence of these, (a) he would have ignored his DI, (b) should surely have wondered why he was going a different direction to the rest of the circuit traffic, (c) on inspection of the windsock (of which there is one at each end of the runway) might have wondered why the prevailing landing direction was a tailwind and (d) might have thought his approach speed was a little fast.
Now, we all make mistakes, and all feel stupid when we do, especially when witnessed by an airfield teeming with pilots. But...FFS, this is a serious one and the time was right to say 'sorry' and to simply obey the instruction to exit the runway to the right 'urgently'. He did eventually exit but with no sense of urgency.
When in a hole - especially one that could have fatal implications - it's time to stop digging. I hope he learned from this one.
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I had an aircraft approach the opposite end of the runway today as I was taking off. He realised on short finals to the (wrong) runway and turned into the correct circuit. Never said a word...
Last week, as I met him head on in the circuit, I was told over the RT by another visiting aircraft that I was flying the wrong way round the circuit (at my home airfield of nearly 30 years).. For him to then announce a minute later that he was actually in the wrong.
Happens all the time, an occupational hazard in the air it seems.
Last week, as I met him head on in the circuit, I was told over the RT by another visiting aircraft that I was flying the wrong way round the circuit (at my home airfield of nearly 30 years).. For him to then announce a minute later that he was actually in the wrong.
Happens all the time, an occupational hazard in the air it seems.
This chap/chapess was not particularly bright, admittedly. Still I can't help playing the devil's advocate: Imagine there was no R/T available, as can happen for many reasons, what were her/his options for knowing what runway to use? Is there a signal square, and if so, what are its implications? Round here in BE, landing against the indicated heading would be considered very grave - but there is no obligation to carry, or use, a radio. In France, OTOH, signal squares are being phased out rapidly, and pilots have every liberty to pick their runway as seems best to them. At non-controlled fields, that is. But they must and do communicate what they are doing with great ability - mostly.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 6th Jun 2016 at 06:54.
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When Sandown Tower is not available, one simply Joins overhead, looks down at ground and check direction of the windsocks, decend over the bay and join crosswind (LH on 05 or RH on 23), while making blind traffic calls, to advise anyone else on the frequency who you are and what your doing.
Its really simple. It really is.
And keep a good lookout as there could be someone non radio.
There are actually numbers in the grass at sandown. Big white ones. One end even has a displaced threshold with a couple of massive pointy white arrows.
Its really simple. It really is.
And keep a good lookout as there could be someone non radio.
There are actually numbers in the grass at sandown. Big white ones. One end even has a displaced threshold with a couple of massive pointy white arrows.
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Don't feel bad, I had a brain donor who came into the strip this weekend, again with no radios, taxied up to the end of the strip swung around onto the opposing threshold, parked it up and pissed off for his lunch leaving it parked to face others landing and taking off for THE THIRD TIME IN 2 YEARS ! His "parking spot" just happens to be the closest place to the path for the cafe. I cleared the runway by pushing his plane into the rough tall grass and sent a text letting him know he was finally barred. I'm patient guy who does everything I can to encourage GA and make my strip available to all but this was taking the piss. Prior to this, the same guy couldn't decide where on the 14 acres clear of the runway he wanted to park so put it in the ditch, tried to power it out causing a nose over and lost the last 6" of his prop, then suggested it would be fine to fly home in that condition with an elderly non pilot passenger.
The mind boggles.
Edit to add: To be more accurate, he didn't taxi up to the end of the runway after landing, he touched down 2/3 of the way down the 1600ft strip and just managed to stop prior to the fence, this was after his first landing attempt was aborted and a go around made thank god.
The mind boggles.
Edit to add: To be more accurate, he didn't taxi up to the end of the runway after landing, he touched down 2/3 of the way down the 1600ft strip and just managed to stop prior to the fence, this was after his first landing attempt was aborted and a go around made thank god.
Last edited by piperboy84; 6th Jun 2016 at 08:11.
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Piperboy;
A potential Darwin Award candidate! Some of the behaviour you see around GA suggests to me that there are people flying who really should be in care in the community programs!
Some years ago I saw a motorised paraglider in the Luton zone crossing the 26 final approach, above cloud when Luton was in LVP's (cloud tops were about 800'agl). That would have made great reading in the AAIB/airmiss reports.
SND
A potential Darwin Award candidate! Some of the behaviour you see around GA suggests to me that there are people flying who really should be in care in the community programs!
Some years ago I saw a motorised paraglider in the Luton zone crossing the 26 final approach, above cloud when Luton was in LVP's (cloud tops were about 800'agl). That would have made great reading in the AAIB/airmiss reports.
SND
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To be honest I think we are very lucky to be so lightly regulated around unlicensed (and even licensed) A/G airfields in the UK. It all relies on common sense/airmanship. But that in turn is heavily dependent on the standard of instruction in pilots' original training, and in club check rides, the reval one hour with an instructor etc. I think instructors are generally very forgiving of bad habits or lack of knowledge shown during dual checks etc. Joining procedures and circuit flying are potentially the most hazardous bit of most PPL flying and I think it is incumbent on instructors to ensure that people are doing it safely and help them to do it better when they see poor procedures/knowledge.
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Joining procedures and circuit flying are potentially the most hazardous bit of most PPL flying and I think it is incumbent on instructors to ensure that people are doing it safely and help them to do it better when they see poor procedures/knowledge.
Turning against circuit direction within the ATZ
Descending to circuit height in the wrong place.
Carrying out a standard join when the brief tells you otherwise.
"He couldn't see the numbers on the ground"
Did it never enter the mind of our hero that if he was on finals to 05 at Sandown, the English Channel should be on his right and not on his left?
Did it never enter the mind of our hero that if he was on finals to 05 at Sandown, the English Channel should be on his right and not on his left?
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That's just it Foxmoth. People don't brief. They are either assuming, lazy, ignorant or arrogant. Take your pick. Seen them all in action.
Too many examples to cite. Straight in approaches in an active circuit is the worst, followed by overtaking in the circuit. People calling up Sywell asking for join instructions for their Expo. For crying out loud.
Last year, we had someone flying abeam our approach to the same runway via their own straight in approach. Radio call was akin to "joining from the SW"' only followed by "final". Bloomin formation flying !
This, despite a firm overhead join notification from the airfield in question. Butter didn't melt in the mouth when the individual was confronted, neither did the airfield (not Sywell btw) share any concern. Needs a number of collective party activities to eradicate and there in lies the problem.
Too many examples to cite. Straight in approaches in an active circuit is the worst, followed by overtaking in the circuit. People calling up Sywell asking for join instructions for their Expo. For crying out loud.
Last year, we had someone flying abeam our approach to the same runway via their own straight in approach. Radio call was akin to "joining from the SW"' only followed by "final". Bloomin formation flying !
This, despite a firm overhead join notification from the airfield in question. Butter didn't melt in the mouth when the individual was confronted, neither did the airfield (not Sywell btw) share any concern. Needs a number of collective party activities to eradicate and there in lies the problem.
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piperboy84,
Whilst I am certainly not faultless with a cross-country overhead join that must have really confused a student and instructor at Fife a few years ago (it did have the added benefit for the instructor/student of a practical example of how not to do one!), I was unfortunate to recently witness an overhead join in the same general area as yourself where the pilot reported overhead then announced they were descending deadside and turned against the circuit direction. Their initial call that they were joining direct to a left base was met with a suggestion that they should join overhead like the other five inbound aircraft.
I'd be interested if it was the same aircraft, so to keep this simple, was the aircraft a standard design or was their something different about it ? (Y/N) I'll understand if you'd rather not answer.
Whilst I am certainly not faultless with a cross-country overhead join that must have really confused a student and instructor at Fife a few years ago (it did have the added benefit for the instructor/student of a practical example of how not to do one!), I was unfortunate to recently witness an overhead join in the same general area as yourself where the pilot reported overhead then announced they were descending deadside and turned against the circuit direction. Their initial call that they were joining direct to a left base was met with a suggestion that they should join overhead like the other five inbound aircraft.
I'd be interested if it was the same aircraft, so to keep this simple, was the aircraft a standard design or was their something different about it ? (Y/N) I'll understand if you'd rather not answer.
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I know I'm going to get a lot of noise out of this, but will ya get off your high horse for a moment? Sound's like the guy wasn't exactly in his comfort zone, I'm sure he learned his lesson, but do you honestly need to call him cretin (as per title?) Do you honestly think the way training happens these days it gives a lot of chance to even take in a fraction of the different variables that might come into play?
I have my own story - just a few hours after getting my PPL, did my first trip down to one of the Irish regional airports (zone C), landed no issue, had a nice day at the beach, came back and I was starting to consider, as per my training, what would I do in case the engine quits on take-off.. The problem was - runway direction led straight into Atlantic after take-off so you had to choose wisely which way you would go, what would you do should the engine quit. I was so focused on the runway direction in which I landed that I simply MISSED the fact that rather slack winds had made the controller happy enough to instruct me to enter the runway and taxy in the opposite direction.. After a short exchange we had a bit of laugh at my expense and I ended up turning back and finally taxying the right direction.
It takes at least 2 pilots to make VFR safe and if you honestly think confirmation bias is just some nonsense they use to plot documentaries, I think it's time for you to hit the good aul books.
DON'T discourage the young and the silly
and DO expect the unexpected.. it is his fault, but that doesn't make him a cretin, now does it?
I have my own story - just a few hours after getting my PPL, did my first trip down to one of the Irish regional airports (zone C), landed no issue, had a nice day at the beach, came back and I was starting to consider, as per my training, what would I do in case the engine quits on take-off.. The problem was - runway direction led straight into Atlantic after take-off so you had to choose wisely which way you would go, what would you do should the engine quit. I was so focused on the runway direction in which I landed that I simply MISSED the fact that rather slack winds had made the controller happy enough to instruct me to enter the runway and taxy in the opposite direction.. After a short exchange we had a bit of laugh at my expense and I ended up turning back and finally taxying the right direction.
It takes at least 2 pilots to make VFR safe and if you honestly think confirmation bias is just some nonsense they use to plot documentaries, I think it's time for you to hit the good aul books.
DON'T discourage the young and the silly
and DO expect the unexpected.. it is his fault, but that doesn't make him a cretin, now does it?
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I'd be interested if it was the same aircraft, so to keep this simple, was the aircraft a standard design or was their something different about it ? (Y/N) I'll understand if you'd rather not answer
I remember being on final to see the departing aircraft coming uncomfortably close to an aircraft landing in the opposite direction
Then there's gliders that decide to land in the opposite direction to takeoff to mimimise ground retrieve. Works fine if handhelds in retrieve vehicles and calls made and acknowledged.
Then there's gliders that decide to land in the opposite direction to takeoff to mimimise ground retrieve. Works fine if handhelds in retrieve vehicles and calls made and acknowledged.
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"it is his fault, but that doesn't make him a cretin, now does it?"
The reason for the word wasn't so much as for the mistake, I accept we all make them and we all learn from them (assuming we live to do so). I have made (and sadly continue to make) my own fair share of them.
But I do think there is a time when it's best to put your hands in the air and do what you can to make amends. And if ever the time was right, sitting on a runway facing the wrong way with incoming traffic is the time !
Arguing black is white (or that 05 is 23) and that no mistake has been made justifies the use of the word.
The reason for the word wasn't so much as for the mistake, I accept we all make them and we all learn from them (assuming we live to do so). I have made (and sadly continue to make) my own fair share of them.
But I do think there is a time when it's best to put your hands in the air and do what you can to make amends. And if ever the time was right, sitting on a runway facing the wrong way with incoming traffic is the time !
Arguing black is white (or that 05 is 23) and that no mistake has been made justifies the use of the word.
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Too many examples to cite. Straight in approaches in an active circuit is the worst, followed by overtaking in the circuit.