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Tracey Curtis-Taylor (Merged threads)

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Tracey Curtis-Taylor (Merged threads)

Old 25th Nov 2016, 23:52
  #2701 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by terry holloway
To Tracey CT?
In fairness no: I have posted them here but I find it hard to believe that she or her team have not seem them given earlier posts in this thread and activities on her Facebook and Wikipedia pages.

That said: give me her contact details, or if more appropriate, give her mine, and I will be happy to speak to her.
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Old 25th Nov 2016, 23:58
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As I understand it the Cub only manages around 70 mph so with all his problems plus weather Kirk has done well to reach Kenya from Somerset in two weeks.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 00:02
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Have a chat with her Jonzarno if that is what you really want to do but she is already very well aware of the three questions that you posed to her.

Arrogant and ignorant, she decided to ignore the questions presented on her Facebook page over three weeks ago.

Ben Smith To Ms Curtis and Mr Kelly, three simple questions have been asked by a Mr Jonzarno on PPRuNe. I.m sure either one of you could readily answer in a short moment.
I would be interested in a reasoned response from the lady herself to just three questions:

1. What is the reconciliation between Ms Curtis-Taylor's well documented claim to have flown her african flight "solo" (Please see the video clip published earlier in this thread in which she personally makes that claim) and her subsequent public statement that the flight was not solo?

2. Given the above, what was she doing in the picture of her published earlier in this thread standing in front of a huge picture claiming she had been "Alone in an open cock-pit [sic] plane"?

3. By what authority, and with what qualification, does she wear RAF wings?

If Ms Curtis-Taylor, can provide sensible and satisfactory answers: I am sure that most if not all of her critics would be silenced. Certainly I am prepared to be convinced.

I look forward to hearing.....
Like Reply 2 31 October at 18:41
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 00:15
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Cessnafly:

Actually, yes I would like to do that. As I said in an earlier post: either some posters here, or she, owe(s) an apology. It would be useful to establish, from the horse's mouth, who it is responsible for what,?and why?

Another .02. This is getting to be expensive......
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 00:20
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I certainly haven't read all the posts,
I have read every post made in this thread, and made the effort to independently inform myself from other objective internet sources. Honestly, the more I read, the worse TCT looks.

you all- were being unfair and not giving her any credit for her achievements in planning the fights, raising the money, and flying the aeroplane.
Honestly, no, I don't feel that her efforts in these regards are unusually credit worthy. From the references to planning assistance hired, It seems that she bought the service, rather than performing it herself. Raising money - was it done truthfully? I struggle to imagine patrons funding two pilots flying a Stearman around, unless there was an angle - like a solo flight? Achievement flying the plane?! She crashed it twice!

I knew the facts, and The Air League award was issued on the basis of those facts. Neither I nor the Air League have or had any remit to correct what the press said about her. That was down to her and her sponsors. I am certain HCAP, WHO ALSO KNEW THE FACTS, would take the same view.
Ah... didn't the HCAP reword the award issued to TCT? If they knew the facts, why would that have been necessary? At least one other award was reworded after the fact, so it sounds as though "facts" were variable in time.

Yes, I am among a group here who are not just letting this die, and moving on. I agree, and have said, TCT is not accused of murder, so this is not capital crime type stuff. However, I suspect that TCT has done things which approach fraud. I believe certain people are holding her up as a notable pilot worthy of celebration. In my opinion, there are very many pilots who should precede her any award. Just letting this die, 'cause it's inconvenient for other people is not honourable. TCT has had ample opportunity to directly address the accusations made against her behaviour, and provide facts which support her position. ALl I have seen from here has been shifty evasion, worthy of a "good speaker", who would rather avoid taking responsibility. It seems that some taking responsibility here is now a minimum expectation. Either responsibility to provide facts to correct our errors of understanding, or facts that admit that TCT has lied.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 00:37
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While Terry's spirited defence of the indefensible and his charming descriptions of fellow members have added interest to this thread...
Can I add a further question?


What was Tracey doing posing for a photograph proudly displaying the Certificate presented to her by the Australian Women Pilots Association in January of this year?
It clearly shows that it marked the bestowment of Honorary Membership of their Association in recognition of her achievement in completing her SOLO flight to Australia.
Just yet another "misunderstanding", hmm?
Some answers, please.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 00:43
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Terry Holloway

Could I make an Air League nomination please.

To Sam Rutherford and Mike Flynn for media services surrounding methodical, accurate and truthful reporting in aviation surrounding the only person, TC-T, in the history of British aviation to ever have an award rescinded.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 00:51
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The questions by Jonzarno and I have been asked on many occasions. They have been posted on the BiaB facebook page and ignored, they have been posted on here (we know she has read this thread as she as made comment about it) and ignored. I cannot speak for others, but I see no point in contacting Tim Kelly as all I would receive, if anything at all, would be more PR guff. Questions repeated below because I, like Jonzarno, don't wish them to get buried again.

1. What is the reconciliation between Ms Curtis-Taylor's well documented claim to have flown her african flight "solo" (Please see the video clip published earlier in this thread in which she personally makes that claim) and her subsequent public statement that the flight was not solo?

2. Given the above, what was she doing in the picture of her published earlier in this thread standing in front of a huge picture claiming she had been "Alone in an open cock-pit [sic] plane"?

3. By what authority, and with what qualification, does she wear RAF wings?
*******
In addition I would like answers to the following

- When exactly did the sponsorship requests begin?
- What did the investors THINK they were getting?
- When was it decided that these would not be a solo flights?
- Why was the solo aspect dropped?
- Were the sponsors informed of this material change?
- If so, when?
- Why was it felt necessary that the front seat would be occupied for the vast majority of the journey by Ewald?
- What steps did TCT take to correct the many SOLO headlines?
- Where is the evidence to show this even happened?
- Why, many months after the return to the UK, was TCT perpetuating the SOLO claim?
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 02:40
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Erwald was mentioned in the HCAP Citation. But then he was only a passenger
Terry, he was not a passenger. He was listed on the accident report (which they blithely describe as an "incident") as a crew member, and he was logging all the hours during which he was a so called "passenger". Passengers do not log hours, and nor are they "crew". The question is, why did they both describe themselves as crew, and why were both of them logging the hours? TCT was nominated in the report as PIC, so in what capacity was Ewald logging time - Copilot, ICUS, navigator, radio operator?
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 03:53
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So it
Originally Posted by terry holloway
Yes, of course I am aware of what was said in the media about solo flight and I bet she regrets not correcting them at the time. Ive also been sent a copy of her interview at Herne Bay. Yes the public has been misled, but she has recently corrected that with a very clear statement.
Not quite.

Her very clear statement shifts almost all of the blame for the inaccuracy in use of the word solo to the media doing the reporting.

She ups the temperature by adding twists of alleged misogyny, jealousy, and a smear against an erstwhile colleague.

The press may or may not be good at fact-checking before printing a good yarn, but let's not forget that she and her sponsors all retained the services of professional PR.

The use of the word solo is sometimes attributed to her in direct quotes, including on video.

So the blame-shifting excuses about other people misusing the word solo, and her counter-complaint that people are falsely and maliciously claiming she passed it off as such, seem unfortunately rather more like further obfuscation than injections of unambiguous clarity.

Last edited by aox; 26th Nov 2016 at 04:45.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 06:07
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Terry, thanks for providing a counter point of view, the issue I have is you seem to be saying that in spite of the fibs TCT told in the Herne Bay vid and her passenger for most of the SA flights actually being an experienced FI/ A&P mechanic she should nonetheless be recognised for her supposed achievements in making those flights and the outreach. I see little achievement in the collaborative planning or performance of the endeavour as conducted (with the sole exception being the fund raising part) and in the absence of an underprivileged kid winning a scholarship, attaining a pilots license or other demonstrative advancement the outreach part seems a bit lacking also . I suppose the bottom line is HCAP's threshold for what merits recognition is a few rungs down the ladder from what most folks on here, myself included, deem impressive and I doubt that can be reconciled on this forum. But again thanks for taking the time to put your points across.

As you have stepped up and used your real name, I shall do the same and also give my qualifications for you to quantify if my opinions are valid.

My name is Duncan Robertson, ironically I have the same age (53), nationality (UK) , flying hours (1300), pilot certificates (CPL) as TCT and have likewise logged several trans-continental flights (USA & Europe ) in a slow tail dragger both solo and with an instructor, I've also crashed twice (once while taxiing the other on take-off) so my experience is pretty much on par with Tracey's and again I don't think her (or my) flying is any big deal and certainly doesn't merit an award nor can be described as an "achievement"

Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by piperboy84; 26th Nov 2016 at 06:21.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 13:07
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aox,

Her very clear statement shifts almost all of the blame for the inaccuracy in use of the word solo to the media doing the reporting.

She ups the temperature by adding twists of alleged misogyny, jealousy, and a smear against an erstwhile colleague.

The press may or may not be good at fact-checking before printing a good yarn, but let's not forget that she and her sponsors all retained the services of professional PR.

The use of the word solo is sometimes attributed to her in direct quotes, including on video.

So the blame-shifting excuses about other people misusing the word solo, and her counter-complaint that people are falsely and maliciously claiming she passed it off as such, seem unfortunately rather more like further obfuscation than injections of unambiguous clarity.
I completely agree. Either she, or someone advising her, has considerable expertise at the technique of answering a minor part of the allegations in great detail while ignoring the rest.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 16:02
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Terry, quick question for you.

Did you really just "stumble" on this thread after being approached by a journo wanting info on Maurice Kirk, or, did you come on here because TCT bleated at you during her visit to Marshalls and you thought you might be able to pour oil on troubled waters?

Please be careful how you reply, it is a rhetorical question and the answer is known. I find it hard to believe that as someone so placed in all of this has only just "found" this very thread which is at the heart of the allegations against her and instrumental in trying to get the HCAP members to see their folly.

Speak to her again, tell her you tried but answers are needed. Once again, the questions are listed below.

Thank you.
SWB

From Jonzarno

1. What is the reconciliation between Ms Curtis-Taylor's well documented claim to have flown her african flight "solo" (Please see the video clip published earlier in this thread in which she personally makes that claim) and her subsequent public statement that the flight was not solo?

2. Given the above, what was she doing in the picture of her published earlier in this thread standing in front of a huge picture claiming she had been "Alone in an open cock-pit [sic] plane"?

3. By what authority, and with what qualification, does she wear RAF wings?
*******
In addition I would like answers to the following

- When exactly did the sponsorship requests begin?
- What did the investors THINK they were getting?
- When was it decided that these would not be a solo flights?
- Why was the solo aspect dropped?
- Were the sponsors informed of this material change?
- If so, when?
- Why was it felt necessary that the front seat would be occupied for the vast majority of the journey by Ewald?
- What steps did TCT take to correct the many SOLO headlines?
- Where is the evidence to show this even happened?
- Why, many months after the return to the UK, was TCT perpetuating the SOLO claim?
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 16:47
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Without having any inside knowledge , I would say that Mr Holloway has been sent into bat for 'Team Tracey'. Which he has done, albeit not very effectively!

I was at first rather mystified that this thread was suddenly being deluged with posts with very little substance and nothing with any relevance in the defence of the person in question. But that may be exactly his brief . If he can ignite a good cyber-squabble and then turn around to the outside world proclaiming how small minded the pursuit is of this "poor, innocent aviation pioneer", then it may just strengthen the surviving BiaB entourage's chances of getting this thread locked down again. Which would suit them perfectly !
Fortunately, none of the main protagonists here have lowered themselves to that and the very , very valid questions put by SWB and Jonzarno still remain here to be answered.

Sending in the court jester may just be an indication of the current status of how things are at 'Team Tracey'.
Let's hope that their resolution for 2017 includes the words , professionalism, judgement, integrity and a little respect for the truth !
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 17:53
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Quote from megan:
"Terry, he was not a passenger. He was listed on the accident report (which they blithely describe as an "incident") as a crew member, and he was logging all the hours during which he was a so called "passenger". Passengers do not log hours, and nor are they "crew". The question is, why did they both describe themselves as crew, and why were both of them logging the hours? TCT was nominated in the report as PIC, so in what capacity was Ewald logging time - Copilot, ICUS, navigator, radio operator?"

Quite. I imagine the minimum legal crew-complement on a Stearman is one pilot? From her own account, we can assume that Ms Curtis-Taylor has logged all the sectors as PIC. If they had been official training flights she would have had to record them as P3.

Fifty years ago, like so many students before and since, every hour I could log was relevant to the acquisition of licences. After my obtaining a CPL there was a lot of hanging about between trips on the Cessna 310 (@30/hr... ) for the IR course. Meanwhile, guys on later courses were at the stage of needing to build their I/F hours on singles, and this demanded the services of a safety pilot. We were assured that a safety pilot could log the hours as P2, on the basis of being "an essential member of the operating crew."

Several years later, having passed the ground exams and carefully counted my hours in the various capacities stipulated, I presented my logbook to Shellmex House (by then aka UK Board of Trade, Civil Aviation Department) in application for my ATPL. In my airline, the date of its acquisition - believe it or not - would establish a pilot's position in the queue for a command course in years to come. About 35 of the P2 hours logged were on the Cessna 150, annotated "Safety Pilot". They were unhesitatingly disallowed, despite my protests, and I had to reapply about a fortnight later.

From what I hear, Mr Gritsch is not exactly struggling to build up his flying hours!

Last edited by Chris Scott; 29th Nov 2016 at 23:39. Reason: Name corrected.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 20:05
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Under FAA rules you cannot be crew in that type/class of aircraft

Originally Posted by Chris Martyr
Without having any inside knowledge , I would say that Mr Holloway has been sent into bat for 'Team Tracey'. Which he has done, albeit not very effectively !
I was at first rather mystified that this thread was suddenly being deluged with posts with very little substance and nothing with any relevance in the defence of the person in question. But that may be exactly his brief . If he can ignite a good cyber-squabble and then turn around to the outside world proclaiming how small minded the pursuit is of this "poor, innocent aviation pioneer", then it may just strengthen the surviving BiaB entourage's chances of getting this thread locked down again. Which would suit them perfectly !
Fortunately, none of the main protagonists here have lowered themselves to that and the very , very valid questions put by SWB and Jonzarno still remain here to be answered.
Sending in the court jester may just be an indication of the current status of how things are at 'Team Tracey'.
Let's hope that their resolution for 2017 includes the words , professionalism, judgement, integrity and a little respect for the truth !
I have not been sent in by anyone!
I stumbled across this thread and thought you were all being rather un kind in not recognising her achievements. That's all!

Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY
Terry, quick question for you.

Did you really just "stumble" on this thread after being approached by a journo wanting info on Maurice Kirk, or, did you come on here because TCT bleated at you during her visit to Marshalls and you thought you might be able to pour oil on troubled waters?

Please be careful how you reply, it is a rhetorical question and the answer is known. I find it hard to believe that as someone so placed in all of this has only just "found" this very thread which is at the heart of the allegations against her and instrumental in trying to get the HCAP members to see their folly.

Speak to her again, tell her you tried but answers are needed. Once again, the questions are listed below.

Thank you.
SWB

From Jonzarno

1. What is the reconciliation between Ms Curtis-Taylor's well documented claim to have flown her african flight "solo" (Please see the video clip published earlier in this thread in which she personally makes that claim) and her subsequent public statement that the flight was not solo?

2. Given the above, what was she doing in the picture of her published earlier in this thread standing in front of a huge picture claiming she had been "Alone in an open cock-pit [sic] plane"?

3. By what authority, and with what qualification, does she wear RAF wings?
*******
In addition I would like answers to the following

- When exactly did the sponsorship requests begin?
- What did the investors THINK they were getting?
- When was it decided that these would not be a solo flights?
- Why was the solo aspect dropped?
- Were the sponsors informed of this material change?
- If so, when?
- Why was it felt necessary that the front seat would be occupied for the vast majority of the journey by Ewald?
- What steps did TCT take to correct the many SOLO headlines?
- Where is the evidence to show this even happened?
- Why, many months after the return to the UK, was TCT perpetuating the SOLO claim?
I found the thread just as I said. I am my own person. I am also not anonymous!!

Originally Posted by Islandlad
Terry

Piperboy and the others above make valid points.

If you - the Air League had been given the Boeing and Artemis sponsorship could you have made better use of it for outreach? Next years funding is there, you have influence. Go get it for the next generation. Cut T C-T out of it. I am all for outreach. I do a little in my little way. Far far less than you have. Do some good with that huge amount, before she blows it on her own flying next year. Cut her cash and awards - she is doing no real good with it. Of all the people on here, you can make very good use of it.

Don't put your hand in the fire for her. I do hope some good can come out of your exchanges on pprune.

Added - if you are the Terry you say you are what stone have you been under for the last 6 months?

You must have been looking at the news and papers. Your connections at Cambridge and with the League. Don't you talk to anyone? What are you playing at?
I've been flying for the last 6 months!
I've also been doing a lot of voluntary charitable work, and a major task for The Air League is fund raising to provide flying opportunities for young people to get them launched on a career in Aviation. If each of you gave us a fiver every time you wrote an unpleasant and misleading thread about Tracey CT our financial positon would be much better. We have approached Artemis seeking funds but they declined. Boeing have been very generous to The Air League for many years and for that we, the Trustees, are very grateful.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 20:24
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Terry Holloway,

I stumbled across this thread and thought you were all being rather un kind in not recognising her achievements. That's all!
I personally would be happy to acknowledge her achievements if I knew what they were. Could you possibly give us a list of what you think that they are, supporting your view with some evidence.

I will help you out by admitting that it is self evident that she has been extremely successful at getting and maintaining some very influential support. After that I am struggling a bit.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 20:30
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Originally Posted by piperboy84
Terry, thanks for providing a counter point of view, the issue I have is you seem to be saying that in spite of the fibs TCT told in the Herne Bay vid and her passenger for most of the SA flights actually being an experienced FI/ A&P mechanic she should nonetheless be recognised for her supposed achievements in making those flights and the outreach. I see little achievement in the collaborative planning or performance of the endeavour as conducted (with the sole exception being the fund raising part) and in the absence of an underprivileged kid winning a scholarship, attaining a pilots license or other demonstrative advancement the outreach part seems a bit lacking also . I suppose the bottom line is HCAP's threshold for what merits recognition is a few rungs down the ladder from what most folks on here, myself included, deem impressive and I doubt that can be reconciled on this forum. But again thanks for taking the time to put your points across.

As you have stepped up and used your real name, I shall do the same and also give my qualifications for you to quantify if my opinions are valid.

My name is Duncan Robertson, ironically I have the same age (53), nationality (UK) , flying hours (1300), pilot certificates (CPL) as TCT and have likewise logged several trans-continental flights (USA & Europe ) in a slow tail dragger both solo and with an instructor, I've also crashed twice (once while taxiing the other on take-off) so my experience is pretty much on par with Tracey's and again I don't think her (or my) flying is any big deal and certainly doesn't merit an award nor can be described as an "achievement"

Just my 2 cents.
It is a huge shame that the flying achievements of so many pilots, such as yourself, go unnoticed in the public eye, and unrecognised by the many organisations including The Air League. This is perhaps why aviation in the UK is in such decline particularly amongst
the young. I flew solo in an Air Cadet glider in 1961, and I view the lack of flying opportunities (and lack of enthusiasm for flying) in the ATC as very sad. Like her or not, Tracey CT is trying to enthuse the young, and it's a shame that her achievements (not many have done such a trip) are being given such negative publicity by Mike Flynn, who started this thread, and by others. I attempted to speak up for her in an attempt to stop the unpleasantness, and have been shouted down by some very unpleasant and rude posts! You are an exception!

Originally Posted by pulse1
Terry Holloway,



I personally would be happy to acknowledge her achievements if I knew what they were. Could you possibly give us a list of what you think that they are, supporting your view with some evidence.

I will help you out by admitting that it is self evident that she has been extremely successful at getting and maintaining some very influential support. After that I am struggling a bit.
Outreach and encouraging the young. She also flew an open cockpit aeroplane a long way!

Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY
The questions by Jonzarno and I have been asked on many occasions. They have been posted on the BiaB facebook page and ignored, they have been posted on here (we know she has read this thread as she as made comment about it) and ignored. I cannot speak for others, but I see no point in contacting Tim Kelly as all I would receive, if anything at all, would be more PR guff. Questions repeated below because I, like Jonzarno, don't wish them to get buried again.

1. What is the reconciliation between Ms Curtis-Taylor's well documented claim to have flown her african flight "solo" (Please see the video clip published earlier in this thread in which she personally makes that claim) and her subsequent public statement that the flight was not solo?

2. Given the above, what was she doing in the picture of her published earlier in this thread standing in front of a huge picture claiming she had been "Alone in an open cock-pit [sic] plane"?

3. By what authority, and with what qualification, does she wear RAF wings?
*******
In addition I would like answers to the following

- When exactly did the sponsorship requests begin?
- What did the investors THINK they were getting?
- When was it decided that these would not be a solo flights?
- Why was the solo aspect dropped?
- Were the sponsors informed of this material change?
- If so, when?
- Why was it felt necessary that the front seat would be occupied for the vast majority of the journey by Ewald?
- What steps did TCT take to correct the many SOLO headlines?
- Where is the evidence to show this even happened?
- Why, many months after the return to the UK, was TCT perpetuating the SOLO claim?
Why don't you ask her!
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 20:35
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[I] thought you were all being rather un kind in not recognising her achievements.
I rather think that many of those posting think that they HAVE recognised what they see as her "achievements". Until such time as she answers the simple and legitimate questions that have been asked about them, it is not surprising that those people will continue to think that they are right.
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Old 26th Nov 2016, 20:40
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Originally Posted by Cessnafly
Terry Holloway

Could I make an Air League nomination please.

To Sam Rutherford and Mike Flynn for media services surrounding methodical, accurate and truthful reporting in aviation surrounding the only person, TC-T, in the history of British aviation to ever have an award rescinded.
Do write and forward your nomination!
However thats what all journalists do. Having read the ongoing posts I suspect that Mike Flynn is working to a slightly different agenda. The truth has been out for ages but as prosecutor, judge and jury he is intent - for whatever reason - in totally destroying her life and reputation. I really cannot accept that action is either gentlemanly of correctb in our modern society.

Originally Posted by Jonzarno
Terry

I am anything but a leader of any pack; but if you want to put her in touch with me, you know where I am: please give her my contact details and I'll be happy to talk to her directly.
Thanks.
I will!

Originally Posted by Cessnafly
"In another post to you I said make a nomination for Maurice. Two weeks to Kenya in a Cub is a bit slow".


I would imagine that MK would tell you to stick your award where the sun doesn't shine. As you know, he doesn't suffer fools gladly.

Two weeks in a cub to Kenya - slow? What about 3 months from Cape to the UK in a Stearman? - supported all the way with a chase-plane for navigation.
He probably will!
They were making a film and it wasn't a race!

Originally Posted by Jay Sata
Just been looking back through all the well documented UK to Australia solo flights since Bert Hinkler did the first one in 1928.

It appears every one has been well funded and the pilots have been well connected.

So my question is has anyone done it without major sponsors,funding and fame?

The only one can find is paraplegic Dave Sykes and he does not even warrant a wiki entry!
TheAir League gave Dave an award which he received from Prince Phillip
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