SEP over water - do you? And if so how far will you go?
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Have just landed the Maule after flying from Perth to Jersey , about 85 miles of the journey across the water, it feels good, sure there's the ass pucker factor but worth it.
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On most long flights there are likely to be periods when there are no good forced landing options. Flying over water has an increased risk, but it's not disproportionately higher.
Most ditchings are survivable with the right equipment and preparation assuming rescue comes in a reasonable time.
The up-side is that you are often flying in less crowded airspace and in smoother flying conditions with no hills, masts or other obstacles. Your journey may well be shorter and cheaper too.
Do your own risk assessment, but you may find that it's not such a bad option.
Most ditchings are survivable with the right equipment and preparation assuming rescue comes in a reasonable time.
The up-side is that you are often flying in less crowded airspace and in smoother flying conditions with no hills, masts or other obstacles. Your journey may well be shorter and cheaper too.
Do your own risk assessment, but you may find that it's not such a bad option.
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G-WAVY?????
That famous water landing in the motor glider...on the way back from the Isles of Scilly, engine failed, so they turned back toward Scilly, but couldn't quite glide far enough, so arrived in the water, after giving a Mayday on the radio. They then climbed out onto the wings. The motor glider floated very nicely.
THEY DIDN'T EVEN GET WET! A rescue boat took them on board, and then tied a line round the prop to tow the Grob back to the beach, but when they took up the strain, the aircraft dived for the bottom! They cut the rope, and it surfaced again, so they tied the line to the tail of the aircraft, and in that configuration it towed back nicely to the beach.
The German manufacturer was pleased to hear about the aircraft's seaworthy behavior, but was unhappy that the engine failed to keep running. Nonetheless it was washed and greased and lovingly restored, and I believe is still flying today.
THEY DIDN'T EVEN GET WET! A rescue boat took them on board, and then tied a line round the prop to tow the Grob back to the beach, but when they took up the strain, the aircraft dived for the bottom! They cut the rope, and it surfaced again, so they tied the line to the tail of the aircraft, and in that configuration it towed back nicely to the beach.
The German manufacturer was pleased to hear about the aircraft's seaworthy behavior, but was unhappy that the engine failed to keep running. Nonetheless it was washed and greased and lovingly restored, and I believe is still flying today.
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I have posted on this subject before, but some may not have heard. Both Jonzarno and Pace are right. Engines do play psychological mind games over water, but as always, it's purely all in the head. I've done thousands of miles in 30 years over water, incident free, until one day in 2009 minutes after departing Lydd in the cruising climb I suddenly developed much reduced manifold pressure. It all went down hill after changing tanks with the use of the mechanical pump. The PA 32 glides like a brick. It all happens very fast. Thankfully it does, but the art is getting right first time. You get one chance at this.
I did nothing different that day than was what was taught to me 25 years previously.
If you are in a retractable, your surviving percentages increase from what I have read statistically. Fortunately, I was. Flying over water is awesome, don't not do it because your're scared. If my next one happens in another 25 years, I will be be ready for it, as I each time I cruise out from the coastline. Good luck and enjoy.
I did nothing different that day than was what was taught to me 25 years previously.
If you are in a retractable, your surviving percentages increase from what I have read statistically. Fortunately, I was. Flying over water is awesome, don't not do it because your're scared. If my next one happens in another 25 years, I will be be ready for it, as I each time I cruise out from the coastline. Good luck and enjoy.
This is worth reading: Ditching Myths Torpedoed - equipped.com
Ditching in a fixed gear aircraft in the English Channel is probably not going to kill you in itself.
Protect yourself in the water and get quickly located are things to plan sensibly for, in the event a ditching occurs - so immersion suit (or dinghy) and GPS PLB as a minimum.
Plus a considered Mayday call ("I'm ditching. Here I am...") on the way down from your high-as-possible transit altitude will help a lot. As will landing close to a vessel, with which height and time will help find - I'm told by the RNLI that a yacht or ideally ferry (Manoeuvrable: Lots of eyes on board) is far better than a tanker or freight carrier.
Simply thinking "It's a SEP with fixed gear: I'm definitely dead if the engine stops" is not only demonstrably wrong, but fatalistic and could well guarantee a bad outcome if that's your view.
Pace, how does the SEP being a Cirrus help at all? It may actually hinder, given now no crash attenuation under the chute due to a crushing undercarriage.
Mary: It was/is G-WAVE.
Ditching in a fixed gear aircraft in the English Channel is probably not going to kill you in itself.
Protect yourself in the water and get quickly located are things to plan sensibly for, in the event a ditching occurs - so immersion suit (or dinghy) and GPS PLB as a minimum.
Plus a considered Mayday call ("I'm ditching. Here I am...") on the way down from your high-as-possible transit altitude will help a lot. As will landing close to a vessel, with which height and time will help find - I'm told by the RNLI that a yacht or ideally ferry (Manoeuvrable: Lots of eyes on board) is far better than a tanker or freight carrier.
Simply thinking "It's a SEP with fixed gear: I'm definitely dead if the engine stops" is not only demonstrably wrong, but fatalistic and could well guarantee a bad outcome if that's your view.
Pace, how does the SEP being a Cirrus help at all? It may actually hinder, given now no crash attenuation under the chute due to a crushing undercarriage.
Mary: It was/is G-WAVE.
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Pace, how does the SEP being a Cirrus help at all? It may actually hinder, given now no crash attenuation under the chute due to a crushing undercarriage.
This was a trans-Pacific ferry flight on which a valve on one of the ferry tanks jammed. As you can see, the pilot was unharmed.
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Jonzarno
That Cirrus plopped down into the Ocean very gently and this is why I mentioned the Cirrus for regular sea crossings
The chances of getting a calm sea especially around the UK are slim and coming down into a heavy swell with a lot of forward motion would be like hitting a brick wall.
In that situation I would take the relatively vertical profile of the Cirrus and use the chute
Thanks for putting up that video
Pace
That Cirrus plopped down into the Ocean very gently and this is why I mentioned the Cirrus for regular sea crossings
The chances of getting a calm sea especially around the UK are slim and coming down into a heavy swell with a lot of forward motion would be like hitting a brick wall.
In that situation I would take the relatively vertical profile of the Cirrus and use the chute
Thanks for putting up that video
Pace
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I think over the sea is one place I would rather use the chute than try to "land" it, not sure I want to fly Cirrus though - seem to be far too many engine failures!!
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This is why I went to a twin as soon as I could. Far too many nasty places below us for singles. Much greater fear for me in a single is the Amazonas or thick forests. That's a place they'll never find you.
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Jonzarno
Not Pace, but that isn't right. There have been several (I think six) successful chute pulls over water and no serious injuries. Here's just one example:
This was a trans-Pacific ferry flight on which a valve on one of the ferry tanks jammed. As you can see, the pilot was unharmed.
Not Pace, but that isn't right. There have been several (I think six) successful chute pulls over water and no serious injuries. Here's just one example:
This was a trans-Pacific ferry flight on which a valve on one of the ferry tanks jammed. As you can see, the pilot was unharmed.
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An elderly pilot back in the 70s ferried a Tomahawk from the USA to Manchester for The Manchester School of Flying(MSF)
Interesting. I got my PPL(A) flying Tomahawks at Manchester School of Flying. When you say "elderly" do you mean it was the CFI? Or do you have a name? Those little planes barely had enough fuel to do a qualifying cross country!
An elderly pilot back in the 70s ferried a Tomahawk from the USA to Manchester for The Manchester School of Flying(MSF)
Interesting. I got my PPL(A) flying Tomahawks at Manchester School of Flying. When you say "elderly" do you mean it was the CFI? Or do you have a name? Those little planes barely had enough fuel to do a qualifying cross country!
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And did you see how quickly the aircraft got dragged under the water, if the chute had turned the other way on touch down it would have dragged the aircraft with water flooding into the cabin and he would have drowned.
We all know how much damage a car will do in a 30 mph head on crash! A lot
Those pretty white caps from 3000 feet will turn into brick walls of water close too
Anything which reduces your horizontal motion will improve your odds
On faster aircraft even into wind will still have a serious impact with a wall of moving water
Hence with the Cirrus although it has horizontal movement with the wind in heavy seas it is a better option to use the chute
Pace
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Pace;
I'm not quite so heroic. All bar one were in Cessna 208's, brand new going to Europe/Africa.
I went swimming in the North Sea before that after everything went wrong in a helicopter. I have never been so cold/scared/petrified in my life
SND
I'm not quite so heroic. All bar one were in Cessna 208's, brand new going to Europe/Africa.
I went swimming in the North Sea before that after everything went wrong in a helicopter. I have never been so cold/scared/petrified in my life
SND
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SND
You are still braver than me
having flown that route high level and high speed a number of times it still seemed a massive expanse of water to cover. Not even warm water but freezing water and usually rough.
i know the sea at close quarters too well )
Turbo prop single maybe but piston single ? You have guts
One occasion I was asked to do the crossing in a Cessna 340 which had experienced engine problems up to Canada the other pilot walked out.
This aircraft was fitted with a large ferry tank which you had to crawl over to get to the pilot seats on your stomach and then drop down.
it was massively over gross weight with fuel in the tank and I realised that failure of the bad engine would mean no more than a stretched glide into the sea.
The remaining pilot filled the ferry tank when we didn't even need it to save money on fuel cost after we discussed it and agreed not to fuel it and I flatly refused to go unless he emptied it again.
Luckily that wreck of a 340 was grounded by an inspector who was going through the area at the time for other reasons so neither of us got to fly it back
Strangely when it was ferried to India a while later it ended up at the bottom of a lake 20 miles from destination so a really jinxed aircraft. The indian pilot who moved it to its home airfield 30 nm further on after the ferry turned the fuel off not knowing how to fly the thing
Pace
You are still braver than me
having flown that route high level and high speed a number of times it still seemed a massive expanse of water to cover. Not even warm water but freezing water and usually rough.i know the sea at close quarters too well )
Turbo prop single maybe but piston single ? You have guts
One occasion I was asked to do the crossing in a Cessna 340 which had experienced engine problems up to Canada the other pilot walked out.
This aircraft was fitted with a large ferry tank which you had to crawl over to get to the pilot seats on your stomach and then drop down.
it was massively over gross weight with fuel in the tank and I realised that failure of the bad engine would mean no more than a stretched glide into the sea.
The remaining pilot filled the ferry tank when we didn't even need it to save money on fuel cost after we discussed it and agreed not to fuel it and I flatly refused to go unless he emptied it again.
Luckily that wreck of a 340 was grounded by an inspector who was going through the area at the time for other reasons so neither of us got to fly it back
Strangely when it was ferried to India a while later it ended up at the bottom of a lake 20 miles from destination so a really jinxed aircraft. The indian pilot who moved it to its home airfield 30 nm further on after the ferry turned the fuel off not knowing how to fly the thing
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 17th Mar 2016 at 17:21.
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SND
All bar one were in Cessna 208's, brand new going to Europe/Africa.
All bar one were in Cessna 208's, brand new going to Europe/Africa.
Interesting experience there, ATC.
I have flown 60 SEPs transatlantic, mostly new from factory. On my ferries of new aircraft I almost always got problems, if any, before reaching the coast. New aircraft = double-edged sword ! Trim runaway once, and a couple of rough-running episodes are all that I can recall actually over the ocean, plus getting hit by lightning once.
Packed it in 5 years ago; reckoned I had got away with it long enough. Am 70 now and I will not be repeating it. Glad I did it though. But too many good guys out there, much younger, experienced too, finally did not make it …
I have flown 60 SEPs transatlantic, mostly new from factory. On my ferries of new aircraft I almost always got problems, if any, before reaching the coast. New aircraft = double-edged sword ! Trim runaway once, and a couple of rough-running episodes are all that I can recall actually over the ocean, plus getting hit by lightning once.
Packed it in 5 years ago; reckoned I had got away with it long enough. Am 70 now and I will not be repeating it. Glad I did it though. But too many good guys out there, much younger, experienced too, finally did not make it …
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Maoraigh1
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In the Iron Curtain days, a guy surreptitiously built a Druine Turbulent, escaped to the West, then crossed the Atlantic in it. Volkswagen engine.
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In the Iron Curtain days, a guy surreptitiously built a Druine Turbulent, escaped to the West, then crossed the Atlantic in it. Volkswagen engine.
