1st Aircraft for a new PPl holder
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1st Aircraft for a new PPl holder
Hi,
I know this question has been asked many times but I am hoping for a variation on a theme. I have a EASA PPL freshly stamped from Gatwick and thinking about getting my own aircraft. Preferably LAA. However on looking around I noticed this... Urban Air UFM 10 Samba
PlaneCheck Aircraft for Sale - New planes and price reductions
However it appears it can't go on the CAA register under a CAA or LAA permit. Why?
Looking about it's registered in France and Germany Advanced Composite Aircraft - SAMBA XXL and LAMBADA - Certification
So if it is registered in one EASA country, why not the UK?
I know this question has been asked many times but I am hoping for a variation on a theme. I have a EASA PPL freshly stamped from Gatwick and thinking about getting my own aircraft. Preferably LAA. However on looking around I noticed this... Urban Air UFM 10 Samba
PlaneCheck Aircraft for Sale - New planes and price reductions
However it appears it can't go on the CAA register under a CAA or LAA permit. Why?
Looking about it's registered in France and Germany Advanced Composite Aircraft - SAMBA XXL and LAMBADA - Certification
So if it is registered in one EASA country, why not the UK?
It's sub-ICAO, therefore doesn't meet internationally common standards. It's also Annex II, so doesn't meet any EASA standards.
Whatever the Irish did to approve it, is almost certainly different to what the French did, and what the Germans did.
In the UK, like most countries, we also do our own thing with sub-ICAO (or EASA Annex II) aeroplanes, so unless you can prove that it was built and inspected, and is of a build standard, approved or approvable in the UK - it's a no-go. You might be able to provide that proof, but by the time you have, it will have almost certainly have been cheaper and quicker to have bought something with a G painted on the side.
I really wish sub-ICAO air law was in the PPL syllabus.
G
Whatever the Irish did to approve it, is almost certainly different to what the French did, and what the Germans did.
In the UK, like most countries, we also do our own thing with sub-ICAO (or EASA Annex II) aeroplanes, so unless you can prove that it was built and inspected, and is of a build standard, approved or approvable in the UK - it's a no-go. You might be able to provide that proof, but by the time you have, it will have almost certainly have been cheaper and quicker to have bought something with a G painted on the side.
I really wish sub-ICAO air law was in the PPL syllabus.
G
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The Samba does not have an exceptional reputation, is very small and was built only how many times ? - so it is a rare bird (somebody mentioned Urban Air only built less than 70 airplanes all types all together, so there may be less than 10 Samba in the world), maybe EI-XLA also scared the hell out the owner?, permit expired? why?, why Jabiru engine (just search PPrune for Jabiru experience) instead of the usual Rotax engine -> could be the only one in the world and what does that mean for maintenance?, czech registration aint easy, bankrupt vendor (2010) with "interesting" successor and production in Dubai, needs an ultra-light license instead of PPL ... I doubt it finds its morning fool until in low 4 digit world.
I have a EASA PPL freshly stamped from Gatwick and thinking about getting my own aircraft.
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Hi - Thats my advert you are talking about. I wouldn't recommend this Samba for a first aircraft, if I was buying something. I am selling it for the owner, who is my landlord at the airfield. The Samba is sort of an Irish thing as there were lots of them sold over here, and many people trained on them. The cheapest way to get going in my opinion is a Piper Colt. Don't buy mine its on the EI reg and moving it back to the G-Reg would be another PITA. But for such small money you get;
a) Best GA engine going IMHO the Lycoming O-235
b) Door that lock
c) Radios, transponder etc
d) Parking brake
e) 108mph cruise on 108hp
f) Gyro panel
g) Enough payload to bring two people and bags
h) Really good short/rough field performance
i) Can handle really windy days quite easily for a novice
I swopped a Taylorcraft for the Colt I have advertised. I flew over in an A/C that lacked items a-i in most regards. Coming home in the Colt felt like I had traded a Mini for a Merc. I would buy an Annex 2 C of A aircraft and get a friendly engineering firm. They can be bought for half the price of an LAA permit aircraft, and if operated by a smart owner the yearly cost can be damn all more. If you could find a cheap tri pacer so much the better.
Just my €0.02 and you paid less for it.
a) Best GA engine going IMHO the Lycoming O-235
b) Door that lock
c) Radios, transponder etc
d) Parking brake
e) 108mph cruise on 108hp
f) Gyro panel
g) Enough payload to bring two people and bags
h) Really good short/rough field performance
i) Can handle really windy days quite easily for a novice
I swopped a Taylorcraft for the Colt I have advertised. I flew over in an A/C that lacked items a-i in most regards. Coming home in the Colt felt like I had traded a Mini for a Merc. I would buy an Annex 2 C of A aircraft and get a friendly engineering firm. They can be bought for half the price of an LAA permit aircraft, and if operated by a smart owner the yearly cost can be damn all more. If you could find a cheap tri pacer so much the better.
Just my €0.02 and you paid less for it.
I agree with Pitts. Don't even buy a share until you've flown some rented hours - and been checked out on a few types. Find out about maintenance, hangarage, insurance before thinking of buying. And consider max weight and empty weight of the actual aircraft before even looking at it. Especially if you weigh more than 55kg.
I recently bought a Druine Turbulent, which has been an absolute hassle and tied up all my finances for over a year sorting it out. This is exactly what you don't want to happen at your stage. But now it's flying I rather like it and I wish I'd bought something similar , (albeit without all the faults) ages ago. I could have certainly been more savvy in buying the aircraft, but I did pay for a pre-buy inspection, so... be wary.
It illustrates the difficulty in owning something. If there's an issue, you are grounded until you can sort it out. But if you buy into a non-equity group and something goes tech you can just walk away and it's someone else's problem. There's a lot to be said for that.
On the other hand there is a learning curve to aircraft ownership, and I'm still in the foothills... But this isn't a learning curve that you learn much about by renting. By the time I'd finished my PPL I had time on 3 types of SEP. By the time I soloed in the Turbulent I had time in 5 more types. But to be honest I was a better pilot when I had my newly minted license. I'd done 45 hours in the previous 2 months, whereas when renting I tended to do far fewer. I suppose it depends on your skill level, but I didn't feel more prepared through having waited before ownership.
Over the past calendar month I put in over 8 hours on the Turbulent (partly in a frenetic rush to keep my licence!) for a marginal cost that is less than the cost of an hour in the 172 I used to rent. Because of cheapish hangarage where I live I'm optimistic that I can get a whole lot more flying in for the same disposable income, and do more interesting things with it - beforehand I couldn't afford to fly for more than an hour or two in any given month.
So... buying a small cheap aircraft (good single seaters can be very affordable) was a formula that could have worked for me at your stage... And arguably worked much better than flying around for short distances at great expense in typical hire aircraft (e.g. 152, 172). Your circumstances might be different, but if you can afford to buy an aircraft and keep a few hours in if it goes tech... Then I don't see why not.
It illustrates the difficulty in owning something. If there's an issue, you are grounded until you can sort it out. But if you buy into a non-equity group and something goes tech you can just walk away and it's someone else's problem. There's a lot to be said for that.
On the other hand there is a learning curve to aircraft ownership, and I'm still in the foothills... But this isn't a learning curve that you learn much about by renting. By the time I'd finished my PPL I had time on 3 types of SEP. By the time I soloed in the Turbulent I had time in 5 more types. But to be honest I was a better pilot when I had my newly minted license. I'd done 45 hours in the previous 2 months, whereas when renting I tended to do far fewer. I suppose it depends on your skill level, but I didn't feel more prepared through having waited before ownership.
Over the past calendar month I put in over 8 hours on the Turbulent (partly in a frenetic rush to keep my licence!) for a marginal cost that is less than the cost of an hour in the 172 I used to rent. Because of cheapish hangarage where I live I'm optimistic that I can get a whole lot more flying in for the same disposable income, and do more interesting things with it - beforehand I couldn't afford to fly for more than an hour or two in any given month.
So... buying a small cheap aircraft (good single seaters can be very affordable) was a formula that could have worked for me at your stage... And arguably worked much better than flying around for short distances at great expense in typical hire aircraft (e.g. 152, 172). Your circumstances might be different, but if you can afford to buy an aircraft and keep a few hours in if it goes tech... Then I don't see why not.
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The best first aircraft will have a cost which does not exceed 2/3 of your budget for the first year, so that you have money to operate it for that first year. If you buy with all your money, you won't be able to operate it. Although I'm not making any negative statement about non certified aircraft, if you learned on a certified aircraft, you might have become used to the benign (and admittedly lackluster and expensive) characteristics. Certainly newer pilots can do well with non certified types, but it takes a more broad set of piloting skills and mentoring.
A C of A aircraft will also be at a known maintenance condition, which will be well documented (and accordingly priced). A non certified aircraft may impose a greater burden upon you to make a determination as to its maintenance status. You'd best be familiar with what you're looking at.
Non certified aircraft might not have some of the "nanny safe" characteristics required for certification. Just make sure your decision in that regard is well informed.
Best to ride in a number to types before you decide. Hang around the flying club, and chat up owners of other types for their thoughts (Note that every owner thinks their aircraft type is best for you!). OFFER TO BUY FUEL for a flight that they might offer to you - it will be worth it!
And then, as well said, consider your most common mission type. Remember, even though you own, you can still rent, if you need four fast seats for the occasional long trip. You don't have to have a larger, faster plane for evening bimbles with your significant other....
A C of A aircraft will also be at a known maintenance condition, which will be well documented (and accordingly priced). A non certified aircraft may impose a greater burden upon you to make a determination as to its maintenance status. You'd best be familiar with what you're looking at.
Non certified aircraft might not have some of the "nanny safe" characteristics required for certification. Just make sure your decision in that regard is well informed.
Best to ride in a number to types before you decide. Hang around the flying club, and chat up owners of other types for their thoughts (Note that every owner thinks their aircraft type is best for you!). OFFER TO BUY FUEL for a flight that they might offer to you - it will be worth it!
And then, as well said, consider your most common mission type. Remember, even though you own, you can still rent, if you need four fast seats for the occasional long trip. You don't have to have a larger, faster plane for evening bimbles with your significant other....
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If you are a new PPL remember your experience level will increase quite quickly and you MAY grow out equally quickly of the aircraft you choose at this stage.
Not always the case as some buy aircraft to quickly build hours then dispose of the aircraft. Buy well and sell well and short term that can work to your advantage
Again do the sums and see what suits your pocket and the hours you intend to fly !
It maybe more prudent to rent to start
Pace
Not always the case as some buy aircraft to quickly build hours then dispose of the aircraft. Buy well and sell well and short term that can work to your advantage
Again do the sums and see what suits your pocket and the hours you intend to fly !
It maybe more prudent to rent to start
Pace
XV255,
congratulations to your brand new PPL! Safe flying and have a lot of fun!
Re first airplane for a brand new PPL, that is one we've done many times over. The question you should ask yourself very sincerely and answer it as honestly as you can is:
What are my goals? Where do I want to fly to? Where am I going with this license in a few years time.
Buying an airplane is quite easy, reselling if you grow out of it is a totally different story these days. So there is a real purpose behind the advice you are about to get: Buy a bit bigger than you think you need right now.
The other trap 1st buyers often fall into is believing that "small" equals "cheap". It doesn't, at least often enough not.
For a 1st buy, I'd go for something which
- is a common type
- has a common type engine
- has a uncritical payload
- is economical to run
- is "buy and fly" (no upcoming major maintenance)
- gives you the most bang for the buck.
and in many cases: Is registered in the country you want to fly it. Import and reg change may cost quite a bit of money.
Common type with common engine pretty directly translates in maintenance cost. Most shops know how to service a PA28 or a C172. Bring in a Ryan Navion or a Sport Cruiser and they need to look up the books, order parts from heaven knows where and so on. My own experience has taught me that a plane which is almost universally repairable, has engines and parts everyone knows and can fix will in the end give you a much more relaxed flying experience than having ground times of weeks until one obscure part has been found.
On top of that: Many of those airplanes are cheap to buy and deliver honest and forgiving performance.
As an example, the PA28-140 is one first plane which fits this pocket perfectly.
Here is one G-Registered PA28 which I could imagine as a first plane.
Asking €19.6k, it appears to be under offer. MOGAS STC, Mode S, 600+400 hours left on the engine, looks fine. Will need upgraded radios eventually.
This PA28-140 is better equipped and has very few hours on engine and prop.
Asking £22.5, this looks very much like a buy and fly plane. Mode S, 8.33 khz in a GNS430 and less than 300 hrs on both engine and prop.
That doesn't mean I recommend any of those planes for immediate buy, there is more to it, like a pre-buy inspection which you need for anything, but just some indicators what can be had as fairly budget planes.
If you want to go towards modern 2 seaters, do inform yourself about restrictions they may have. UL's are fun, but often very payload challenged and restricted in where you can fly with them. There are other very cheap planes around, such as loads of Moranes and Robins, which can do the job nicely. I don't have any experience in those therefore I won't comment.
What is definitly a good idea is to go out renting or test flying a number of different types to see what you want. I'd see to it that you can fly all the usual suspects someplace, PA28, C172/182, M20, PARO, Robins, and see what suits you best.
Have fun. Buying is mostly a rather fun process and you learn a lot.
congratulations to your brand new PPL! Safe flying and have a lot of fun!
Re first airplane for a brand new PPL, that is one we've done many times over. The question you should ask yourself very sincerely and answer it as honestly as you can is:
What are my goals? Where do I want to fly to? Where am I going with this license in a few years time.
Buying an airplane is quite easy, reselling if you grow out of it is a totally different story these days. So there is a real purpose behind the advice you are about to get: Buy a bit bigger than you think you need right now.
The other trap 1st buyers often fall into is believing that "small" equals "cheap". It doesn't, at least often enough not.
For a 1st buy, I'd go for something which
- is a common type
- has a common type engine
- has a uncritical payload
- is economical to run
- is "buy and fly" (no upcoming major maintenance)
- gives you the most bang for the buck.
and in many cases: Is registered in the country you want to fly it. Import and reg change may cost quite a bit of money.
Common type with common engine pretty directly translates in maintenance cost. Most shops know how to service a PA28 or a C172. Bring in a Ryan Navion or a Sport Cruiser and they need to look up the books, order parts from heaven knows where and so on. My own experience has taught me that a plane which is almost universally repairable, has engines and parts everyone knows and can fix will in the end give you a much more relaxed flying experience than having ground times of weeks until one obscure part has been found.
On top of that: Many of those airplanes are cheap to buy and deliver honest and forgiving performance.
As an example, the PA28-140 is one first plane which fits this pocket perfectly.
Here is one G-Registered PA28 which I could imagine as a first plane.
Asking €19.6k, it appears to be under offer. MOGAS STC, Mode S, 600+400 hours left on the engine, looks fine. Will need upgraded radios eventually.
This PA28-140 is better equipped and has very few hours on engine and prop.
Asking £22.5, this looks very much like a buy and fly plane. Mode S, 8.33 khz in a GNS430 and less than 300 hrs on both engine and prop.
That doesn't mean I recommend any of those planes for immediate buy, there is more to it, like a pre-buy inspection which you need for anything, but just some indicators what can be had as fairly budget planes.
If you want to go towards modern 2 seaters, do inform yourself about restrictions they may have. UL's are fun, but often very payload challenged and restricted in where you can fly with them. There are other very cheap planes around, such as loads of Moranes and Robins, which can do the job nicely. I don't have any experience in those therefore I won't comment.
What is definitly a good idea is to go out renting or test flying a number of different types to see what you want. I'd see to it that you can fly all the usual suspects someplace, PA28, C172/182, M20, PARO, Robins, and see what suits you best.
Have fun. Buying is mostly a rather fun process and you learn a lot.
