Skyuber... or how is this even legal in EASA land?
Thread Starter
Skyuber... or how is this even legal in EASA land?
Interesting article on the Beeb website regarding Skyuber. As you can guess from the name it is an uber-alike pooling app that allows flight sharing.
Catching a lift on a private plane - BBC News
This is basically cost sharing... which is legal, however the advertising of flights for cost sharing is not strictly legal.
https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?c...0&pageid=16888
Can't see the CAA allowing this in any shape or form in the UK. Even if they did, it would only last as long as it took for the first 45 hour PPL to fly a group of skyuber pax into the side of a mountain in IMC.
Catching a lift on a private plane - BBC News
This is basically cost sharing... which is legal, however the advertising of flights for cost sharing is not strictly legal.
https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?c...0&pageid=16888
A flight can now be advertised in advance, but it should be made clear that it is a cost sharing flight, and not commercial air transport under an Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC), since it is an offence to advertise the sale of a public or commercial air transport flight without being in possession of an AOC.
This aims to allow cost sharing between friends and colleagues and not to provide an air taxi service to members of the public.
This aims to allow cost sharing between friends and colleagues and not to provide an air taxi service to members of the public.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Previous threads on a similar topic:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...aa-update.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ervice-ga.html
SD
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...aa-update.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ervice-ga.html
SD
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In the BBC article they talk "finding passengers", which would translate to PAX in "aviation speak". I am not wure to fetch the idea correctly, but isn't that exactly the regime where you need CPL and at least a good insurance, if not be enrolled as a passenger carrying air transport organization? Can this AirUber be legal?
*ok, update* I did not read the other threads before posting, clarifies a lot.
*ok, update* I did not read the other threads before posting, clarifies a lot.
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Jetblu
Uber took on the Black Cabs in London and won in the courts. They are not stupid and have a very good legal department.
They wouldn't take this on if they didn't think it was legal so good luck to them
Pace
Uber took on the Black Cabs in London and won in the courts. They are not stupid and have a very good legal department.
They wouldn't take this on if they didn't think it was legal so good luck to them
Pace
Thread Starter
One thing to point out is that this is not run by the company that runs Uber, it is a private effort using a similar name.
To quote the beeb article...
Based on the CAA guidance on advertising flights for cost sharing which I posted above I can't see how this is in anyway legal. Whilst it is legal to advertise a flight for cost sharing to other members in your flying club, it is not legal to do the same to members of the public on Gumtree, how is this different?
To quote the beeb article...
Despite its name, Skyuber has no connection to the popular taxi-hailing Uber app that allows users to book a car and driver. And the founders say they don't want to compete with private jet companies and low cost airlines.
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Whilst it is legal to advertise a flight for cost sharing to other members in your flying club, it is not legal to do the same to members of the public on Gumtree, how is this different?
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"The maximum number of private persons who must share the direct costs (and only the direct costs) of the flight is increased from four to six (including the pilot), and the requirement for those costs to be shared equally and for the flight not to be published or advertised is removed.
IN 2015/029
How can the flight be classed as private though? Surely if it's a service offered through SkyUber an AOC would be required?
IN 2015/029
How can the flight be classed as private though? Surely if it's a service offered through SkyUber an AOC would be required?
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What they may fall foul off is :-
Whilst this does not strictly make it illegal it certainly hints that it may lead to further rules being brought in to stop it!
This aims to allow cost sharing between friends and colleagues and not to provide an air taxi service to members of the public.
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This idea may have legs, I just registered on their site and the featured flight of the week is some guy with a PPL IR flying from Cambridge to Biggin Hill with the shared costs at 63 euros. If I was in the market to just get in the air and have a plane ride and didn't want to faff about with booking in, pre-flighting, checking weather or the FBO/Flight school kerfuffle this would be the way go. You can look at the pilots license, medical, aircraft ownership and insurance documents right on the site and run a G info or N reg search for added verification. Show up 5 minutes before the engine gets fired up, climb in and get comfy and your off. Upon landing its jump out and wave goodbye, no farting around securing, tidying , pushing back in the hangar or feigning interest while some prat dressed like a South American dictator gives a long winded debriefing followed by the pesky logs and maintenance squawks paperwork, leave it all to Mr Uber Pilot and head off for a pint. .
Would be really good for overseas pilots on holiday here that just wanted to go for a buzz around without the hassle of getting checked out, learning the airspace or getting renters insurance. In the extremely unlikely situation where the pilot turned out to be an dip**** you could always give him the old "I have control" routine and land safely then give him a **** review on the site so others don't use him just like you do on Uber cabs.
Would be really good for overseas pilots on holiday here that just wanted to go for a buzz around without the hassle of getting checked out, learning the airspace or getting renters insurance. In the extremely unlikely situation where the pilot turned out to be an dip**** you could always give him the old "I have control" routine and land safely then give him a **** review on the site so others don't use him just like you do on Uber cabs.
Last edited by piperboy84; 6th Nov 2015 at 14:27.
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@piperboy: as you have registered already - what were you asked as a PAX to provide on information upon yourself? If I were a pilot sharing a seat like this, I absolutely would want to make sure not to get a lunatic on the right seat.
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In the extremely unlikely situation where the pilot turned out to be an dip**** you could always give him the old "I have control" routine and land safely
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I haven't finished my profile, just registered with the bare minimum without uploading the documents etc. so I could take a look around. But it seems that its just like getting an Uber cab with little or no PAX screening. I suppose you could get a nutter showing up, but then again that could happen at a flight school or even when taking a friend up if they had some mental or addiction issue that you were unaware of.
Thinking about it, if you were minded to top yourself by jumping out this would be a high profile (and cheap if you cancelled your card prior to take off) way of doing it if that's what you were after.
Thinking about it, if you were minded to top yourself by jumping out this would be a high profile (and cheap if you cancelled your card prior to take off) way of doing it if that's what you were after.
How can the flight be classed as private though? Surely if it's a service offered through SkyUber an AOC would be required?
Art 14 Offering commercial transport and public transport flights

(1) No person may hold anyone out (whether the person who is being held out is the same person as the one who is holding out or is another person) as being one who may offer flights in an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom for the purpose of public transport or commercial air transport unless the person being held out holds:
(a) in the case of a commercial air transport operation, a valid Part-CAT air operator certificate;
(b) in the case of a public transport flight, a valid national air operator’s certificate or a valid Part-CAT air operator certificate; or
(c) in the case of an A to A commercial air transport aeroplane operation, a valid Part-CAT air operator certificate or a valid EU-OPS air operator certificate.
So you can't claim to be a CAT operator unless you have an AOC. But it does not appear to prohibit offering private flights involving passenger cost sharing, and does not in fact even require the operator to include in the offer any warning that it is not an AOC holder.
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"Dip****"
Now, now, calm down there Mr. Airbus Jockey/CRM guru, I’m just PPL on a rumour website joshing about the hypothetical pros and cons of hiring out the spamcan as a mini cab. We both know it aint ever going to happen.
Now, now, calm down there Mr. Airbus Jockey/CRM guru, I’m just PPL on a rumour website joshing about the hypothetical pros and cons of hiring out the spamcan as a mini cab. We both know it aint ever going to happen.
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Piperboy, just saying how that comment makes you look, if you have no problem with that neither do I!
Bookworm -
This would suggest otherwise!
Bookworm -
does not in fact even require the operator to include in the offer any warning that it is not an AOC holder.
A flight can now be advertised in advance, but it should be made clear that it is a cost sharing flight, and not commercial air transport under an Air Operator’s Certificate (AOC),
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I think the reason this could reasonably be called 'private' is because the pilot is not going to be making any money out of it. The record of payments will quite clearly show whether the costs were shared equally.
I like the idea, but not as a 'taxi' type app, but as a way that qualified (or even people in the process of learning) can find another (fully qualified) pilot and pay to take a flight that a pilot may be going on anyway.
This would allow someone to get some experience of what happens on a variety of flights without having to fly themselves.
......by the way, a possible 'legal' test in these things is about control. i.e. the app cannot 'assign' pilots to passengers or vice versa and neither party has any obligations, the flight can be cancelled on a whim by either party with no penalty.
I like the idea, but not as a 'taxi' type app, but as a way that qualified (or even people in the process of learning) can find another (fully qualified) pilot and pay to take a flight that a pilot may be going on anyway.
This would allow someone to get some experience of what happens on a variety of flights without having to fly themselves.
......by the way, a possible 'legal' test in these things is about control. i.e. the app cannot 'assign' pilots to passengers or vice versa and neither party has any obligations, the flight can be cancelled on a whim by either party with no penalty.
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But it does not appear to prohibit offering private flights involving passenger cost sharing,
I know that Uber (iF this is the same company} are in this to make money. With Uber Taxi drivers they take 20% of the fare, the payment goes to Uber not the driver on a stored credit/debit card and is then paid back to the driver minus the charge.
If it was pure cost sharing I would question why Uber would want involvement. with past experience they will have some sort of legal loophole and will have done their research
Pace
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gentoo
i don't think under the new rules the costs have to be shared equally
1.6 The EASA Air Operations Regulation was amended in 2014 to include some exceptions of its own, similar to some of the exceptions in the ANO. Two of these EASA exceptions go further than the ANO:
• the EASA exception allowing cost sharing permits up to 6 persons to share the cost with no minimum contribution and no restriction on advertising, and
3 Cost-Sharing by Private Persons
3.1 The maximum number of private persons who must share the direct costs (and only the direct costs) of the flight is increased from four to six (including the pilot), and the requirement for those costs to be shared equally and for the flight not to be published or advertised is removed.
I think the reason this could reasonably be called 'private' is because the pilot is not going to be making any money out of it. The record of payments will quite clearly show whether the costs were shared equally.
1.6 The EASA Air Operations Regulation was amended in 2014 to include some exceptions of its own, similar to some of the exceptions in the ANO. Two of these EASA exceptions go further than the ANO:
• the EASA exception allowing cost sharing permits up to 6 persons to share the cost with no minimum contribution and no restriction on advertising, and
3 Cost-Sharing by Private Persons
3.1 The maximum number of private persons who must share the direct costs (and only the direct costs) of the flight is increased from four to six (including the pilot), and the requirement for those costs to be shared equally and for the flight not to be published or advertised is removed.