P2 In a SEP
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Step Turn;
Here in EASA land it goes a bit like this. (the following is what I had to look at for privately operating single pilot IFR helicopters with two pilots. Although the pilots are paid and have all the fringe benefits, and hold ATPL/CPL IR, the flights are private for the owners, and could in fact, if a sutably qualified PPL was available be flown by a PPL)
1.The aircraft are certified SP/IFR therefore there is no requirement for a P2, therefore the bod in the P2 seat can't log the hours.
2. To operate properly 2 crew, both pilots must have passed a multi crew LPC on type and be MCC qualified. The crew must have procedures in place to operate 2 crew.
3. As the aircraft are certified SP/IFR there are no such procedures available, ergo the only way they can be done is to write them and submit them to the authority.
Doubtless others know more than me, but that has been my experience, and writing the procedures and getting them accepted took quite a while. I've heard all sorts of schemes in flying club bars, including one bloke who was claiming two crew time in a PA28 for his currency, until he was shown the insurance small print which mentioned something about PIC/P2 hours......
SND
Here in EASA land it goes a bit like this. (the following is what I had to look at for privately operating single pilot IFR helicopters with two pilots. Although the pilots are paid and have all the fringe benefits, and hold ATPL/CPL IR, the flights are private for the owners, and could in fact, if a sutably qualified PPL was available be flown by a PPL)
1.The aircraft are certified SP/IFR therefore there is no requirement for a P2, therefore the bod in the P2 seat can't log the hours.
2. To operate properly 2 crew, both pilots must have passed a multi crew LPC on type and be MCC qualified. The crew must have procedures in place to operate 2 crew.
3. As the aircraft are certified SP/IFR there are no such procedures available, ergo the only way they can be done is to write them and submit them to the authority.
Doubtless others know more than me, but that has been my experience, and writing the procedures and getting them accepted took quite a while. I've heard all sorts of schemes in flying club bars, including one bloke who was claiming two crew time in a PA28 for his currency, until he was shown the insurance small print which mentioned something about PIC/P2 hours......
SND
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Step Turn,
The question posed in the original post was:
There were no further conditions applied to that question. The answer to that question remains a firm yes you can, I mentioned some of the conditions that would warrant that.
I happen to agree with you that trundling off for Sunday brunch in a C172 is a single-pilot operation, and for the vast majority of SEP operations there is no regulatory requirement for a P2, which would preclude logging any such hours.
Having said that, SEP and P2 are not mutually exclusive propositions, they co-exist under some circumstances.
If the civil aviation authority that governs a specific operation requires two crew members on the flight deck for that operation the P2 would be entitled to log those hours, regardless of the number of engines and the hydrocarbon utilised or whether its a fixed or rotor wing aircraft.
P2 is a regulatory/operational/insurance requirement, not exclusively related to SEP operations, there are twin jets that have no need for a P2.
The question posed in the original post was:
P2 In a SEP
I have just had a conversation with a friend of mine who was saying that he thinks it is possible to fly P2, and therefore count the hours in your log book, in a SEP.
Is he correct? I have always been told that you can't fly P2 in a SEP...
I have just had a conversation with a friend of mine who was saying that he thinks it is possible to fly P2, and therefore count the hours in your log book, in a SEP.
Is he correct? I have always been told that you can't fly P2 in a SEP...
I happen to agree with you that trundling off for Sunday brunch in a C172 is a single-pilot operation, and for the vast majority of SEP operations there is no regulatory requirement for a P2, which would preclude logging any such hours.
Having said that, SEP and P2 are not mutually exclusive propositions, they co-exist under some circumstances.
Flyems, would you describe the requirements and rating which entitle a non instructor to log P2 hours in an SEP aircraft?
P2 is a regulatory/operational/insurance requirement, not exclusively related to SEP operations, there are twin jets that have no need for a P2.
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3. As the aircraft are certified SP/IFR there are no such procedures available, ergo the only way they can be done is to write them and submit them to the authority.
Doubtless others know more than me, but that has been my experience, and writing the procedures and getting them accepted took quite a while.
Doubtless others know more than me, but that has been my experience, and writing the procedures and getting them accepted took quite a while.
Yes, one might apply to the authority for specific approved operations, but the authority will not expend time nor effort considering and issuing approvals for which a real world need has been demonstrated. As I mentioned before, for operations within the limitations of a 172 or similar SEP aircraft, what would the second pilot do? "Please find the approach plate for XXX, and tune the frequencies..." does not constitute enough "piloting" that a second pilot should log flying time for it.
If the civil aviation authority that governs a specific operation requires two crew members on the flight deck for that operation the P2 would be entitled to log those hours, regardless of the number of engines and the hydrocarbon utilised or whether its a fixed or rotor wing aircraft.
SEP and P2 are not mutually exclusive propositions, they co-exist under some circumstances.
In Canada, the rule reads:
Minimum Flight Crew of 2 Requirement
The type certificate determines if an aircraft is to be operated with a minimum flight crew of 2. For example, large Boeing Aeroplanes (B737, 747, 757, etc.) are designated as minimum flight crew of 2 on the type certificate. Guidance material regarding minimum crew requirement is found in Section 421.40 of the CARs - Appendix A Aircraft Type Designators. This chart is a guide only and, in the event of a discrepancy, the appropriate Aircraft Type Approval, Aircraft Type Certificate, Flight Permit, Aircraft Flight Manual or Pilot's Operating Manual take precedence.
The type certificate determines if an aircraft is to be operated with a minimum flight crew of 2. For example, large Boeing Aeroplanes (B737, 747, 757, etc.) are designated as minimum flight crew of 2 on the type certificate. Guidance material regarding minimum crew requirement is found in Section 421.40 of the CARs - Appendix A Aircraft Type Designators. This chart is a guide only and, in the event of a discrepancy, the appropriate Aircraft Type Approval, Aircraft Type Certificate, Flight Permit, Aircraft Flight Manual or Pilot's Operating Manual take precedence.
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@SND: isn't there a requirement in EASAland to operate SEP IFR with either a two-axis autopilot equipped or a 2 crew? Consequently in EASAland there could be P2 IR SEP hours in aircraft without two-axis autopilot flying IFR, or not?
I think that restriction is only in a few countries, and only for commercial operations.
It's certainly not true in Britain.
But EASA standardisation is seldom all that standardised!
I'm sure you're right that there are some obscure conditions somewhere where it's possible to have 2 people logging in an SEP (other than the obvious of instruction). But it's rare, and certainly doesn't apply to the vast majority of pilots, the vast majority of the time.
G
It's certainly not true in Britain.
But EASA standardisation is seldom all that standardised!
I'm sure you're right that there are some obscure conditions somewhere where it's possible to have 2 people logging in an SEP (other than the obvious of instruction). But it's rare, and certainly doesn't apply to the vast majority of pilots, the vast majority of the time.
G
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Chicken house;
You are right, except in the helicopter case where ther is no IFR without two engines AND a working auto-pilot, and a spare pilot if you need/want one.
BUT if an aeroplane is certified single pilot and none of the other items I described in my earlier post have been covered then there is still no 2 crew. It used to be so much easier before JAR and EASA
SND
You are right, except in the helicopter case where ther is no IFR without two engines AND a working auto-pilot, and a spare pilot if you need/want one.
BUT if an aeroplane is certified single pilot and none of the other items I described in my earlier post have been covered then there is still no 2 crew. It used to be so much easier before JAR and EASA
SND
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Flyems.
You are correct that I put no restrictions on my original question. However, I was talking about two guys getting in a PA28 and going somewhere just for the hell of it.
In this instance, where neither pilot is a qualified instrument pilot, or even MCC qualified, and we're flying in the daytime it seems my friend is wrong.
You are correct that I put no restrictions on my original question. However, I was talking about two guys getting in a PA28 and going somewhere just for the hell of it.
In this instance, where neither pilot is a qualified instrument pilot, or even MCC qualified, and we're flying in the daytime it seems my friend is wrong.
Not sure this will help, but I have about 500 P2 hours in my logbook.
Military Gazelle (Single engine, and also very definitely a single-pilot machine). Subsequently about 1000 P1 hours (and when flying with a co-pilot, he was logging P2). No instructors in sight.
No question that I shouldn't have logged those P2 hours, so...? Something different for the military?
Safe flights, Sam.
Military Gazelle (Single engine, and also very definitely a single-pilot machine). Subsequently about 1000 P1 hours (and when flying with a co-pilot, he was logging P2). No instructors in sight.
No question that I shouldn't have logged those P2 hours, so...? Something different for the military?
Safe flights, Sam.
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In a single pilot aeroplane such as the PA28 there are only three operating capacities that may be claimed for licensing purposes, PIC, Dual or SPIC. Dual (as defined in FCL.010) may be claimed only if receiving flight instruction from a properly authorised instructor and SPIC is reserved for students on an approved integrated course. In the circumstances described by the OP, therefore, one of the pilots may claim PIC while the other is simply a passenger - these roles may, of course, be exchanged during the flight but the sum of the PIC time claimed by the two pilots may not exceed the total flight time. The only other operating capacity recognised by the UK (but not by EASA) is SNY (supernumerary) although it counts for nothing in licensing terms.
A pilot may record anything (s)he wishes in his/her personal logbook but, when applying for licences, ratings or certificates, may claim only flight time gained in accordance with the regulations. Any flight time gained in SEP aeroplanes and recorded in a logbook as P2 will be ignored for licensing purposes by the competent authority.
A pilot may record anything (s)he wishes in his/her personal logbook but, when applying for licences, ratings or certificates, may claim only flight time gained in accordance with the regulations. Any flight time gained in SEP aeroplanes and recorded in a logbook as P2 will be ignored for licensing purposes by the competent authority.
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Flyems.
You are correct that I put no restrictions on my original question. However, I was talking about two guys getting in a PA28 and going somewhere just for the hell of it.
In this instance, where neither pilot is a qualified instrument pilot, or even MCC qualified, and we're flying in the daytime it seems my friend is wrong.
You are correct that I put no restrictions on my original question. However, I was talking about two guys getting in a PA28 and going somewhere just for the hell of it.
In this instance, where neither pilot is a qualified instrument pilot, or even MCC qualified, and we're flying in the daytime it seems my friend is wrong.
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Any flight time gained in SEP aeroplanes and recorded in a logbook as P2 will be ignored for licensing purposes by the competent authority.
If you have a single pilot certified SEP, whose actual operations requires a second pilot - as there are some occasions we already identified by the IFR requirements for aircraft without 2-axis autopilot in certain countries - how to deal with that? Open question, as I am really not sure.
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If you have a single pilot certified SEP, whose actual operations requires a second pilot - as there are some occasions we already identified by the IFR requirements for aircraft without 2-axis autopilot in certain countries - how to deal with that?
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I am aware that some commercial operations could require two pilots. Honestly, is anyone aware of a commercial IFR operation permitted in an SEP type aircraft? Short of citing a real world example, I thing this is a stretch of thinking to a non existent scenario....
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Surely this question hinges upon an interpretaton of 'requires' or 'required' ?
Who is doing the 'requiring' ? I think that it is, in the case of a non commercial flight - I have no knowledge of the rules governing commercials - in the remit of P1.
If two, both rated on type, are flying and one is designated P1 for the duration of the flight and P1 asks his - at that point passenger - to take over and fly the a/c that pilot (erstwhile passenger) without assuming command duties becomes the handling pilot and can log P.2. entering in the 'remarks' column; "Shared Duties".
Who is doing the 'requiring' ? I think that it is, in the case of a non commercial flight - I have no knowledge of the rules governing commercials - in the remit of P1.
If two, both rated on type, are flying and one is designated P1 for the duration of the flight and P1 asks his - at that point passenger - to take over and fly the a/c that pilot (erstwhile passenger) without assuming command duties becomes the handling pilot and can log P.2. entering in the 'remarks' column; "Shared Duties".
