Cross wind landings
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the "demonstrated crosswind component" is not in the LIMITATIONS section of the POH, then it is not a limit, just a testimony that someone made a landing in such and such a crosswind component while an official observer was watching.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't argue about what he says Pull What as I'm not in the same league as a pilot as he but I take your point. I'm just saying what he says.
As to your 'change techniques half way down the approach' again, you are vastly more experienced than me and as someone who flies maybe four or five hours a month I would rather stick to one technique or the other for the whole approach.
Incidentally, said pilot used to frequent these forums and had some input into a similar thread a couple of years ago, might be worth searching it out if you're interested in what he said.
As to your 'change techniques half way down the approach' again, you are vastly more experienced than me and as someone who flies maybe four or five hours a month I would rather stick to one technique or the other for the whole approach.
Incidentally, said pilot used to frequent these forums and had some input into a similar thread a couple of years ago, might be worth searching it out if you're interested in what he said.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oz
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am a low hour rec pilot, got about 150 hours up now. Just about to do the PPL test.
One thing I realiased about crosswind landings is that if you slip it in, you are dragging it in under power. I was doing some training with an instructor in less that ideal conditions once, low vis, crosswind etc. I had this mental block, and kept using the rudder to keep me aligned with the runway but could not understand why I had to keep feeding in the power to keep the approach angle and speed where it should be.
I dont know what the best way to approcah a crosswind is, but I have had it hammered into me to keep a tight circuit and not drag the plane in under power. Not sure how many engine failures you get on final, but that was the excuse for that style of training. I can say from my limited experience that crabbing in and using rudder just before touch down certainly requires the least amount of power. This is now my preferred technique. Is it right or wrong? I dont know, but it works for me.
One thing I realiased about crosswind landings is that if you slip it in, you are dragging it in under power. I was doing some training with an instructor in less that ideal conditions once, low vis, crosswind etc. I had this mental block, and kept using the rudder to keep me aligned with the runway but could not understand why I had to keep feeding in the power to keep the approach angle and speed where it should be.
I dont know what the best way to approcah a crosswind is, but I have had it hammered into me to keep a tight circuit and not drag the plane in under power. Not sure how many engine failures you get on final, but that was the excuse for that style of training. I can say from my limited experience that crabbing in and using rudder just before touch down certainly requires the least amount of power. This is now my preferred technique. Is it right or wrong? I dont know, but it works for me.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
One thing I realiased about crosswind landings is that if you slip it in, you are dragging it in under power.
(Personally I find dragging it in under power occasionally useful for short runways with no obstructions in the undershoot, but no doubt I'm going to be shot down for saying that. And I haven't had to do it for a while, so maybe I don't need to any more.)
However many or few engine failures you get, in final or whenever or wherever, there is no phase or flight where one cannot possibly happen. Always have a plan B, remember?
There is not a single reason to NOT come in fairly high, cut power as soon as certainly within gliding distance from the threshold, and sideslip off the excess altitude so as to touch down on the numbers. Crosswind or no - only, if there IS a crosswind, make sure your sideslip is on the right side.
There is not a single reason to NOT come in fairly high, cut power as soon as certainly within gliding distance from the threshold, and sideslip off the excess altitude so as to touch down on the numbers. Crosswind or no - only, if there IS a crosswind, make sure your sideslip is on the right side.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is not a single reason to NOT come in fairly high, cut power as soon as certainly within gliding distance from the threshold, and sideslip off the excess altitude so as to touch down on the numbers. Crosswind or no - only, if there IS a crosswind, make sure your sideslip is on the right side.
I was taught to transition from the crabbed attitude to the wing down position during the round out and flare. I've never considered flaring while crabbed then transitioning before touchdown, I might try it sometime. It does seem like you have a lot to do in a short space of time though.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The most unusual looking landings I ever did was when I was flying a DC3 with cross wind gear.
You hold the crab angle right to touch down and during the roll out after landing, it is really weird going down the runway sideways.
The biggest problem with that gear system was the weight.
When they changed back to regular gear they gained around sixteen hundred pounds.
You hold the crab angle right to touch down and during the roll out after landing, it is really weird going down the runway sideways.
The biggest problem with that gear system was the weight.
When they changed back to regular gear they gained around sixteen hundred pounds.
If you can't keep the aircraft pointing straight down the runway with crossed controls, the crosswind is out of limits.
If you can't keep the aircraft pointing straight down the runway when the crosswind is within max demonstrated, it's the pilot who's out of limits.
If the aircraft had eyes it would be rolling them
.
Crab or crossed controls down the approach is personal preference. It's short final that matters. I think this 'kicking it straight in the flare' business is a form of madness.
This clip shows nicely how it should be done in most light aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXz3ESt4Jy8
If you can't keep the aircraft pointing straight down the runway when the crosswind is within max demonstrated, it's the pilot who's out of limits.
If the aircraft had eyes it would be rolling them
.Crab or crossed controls down the approach is personal preference. It's short final that matters. I think this 'kicking it straight in the flare' business is a form of madness.
This clip shows nicely how it should be done in most light aircraft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXz3ESt4Jy8
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gertrude, you're not alone. I do just that when trying to achieve a short roll out or when practicing for spot landing comps.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with doing it if you know why you are doing it. I see plenty of spam can drivers who fly 3 degree approaches and seem not to care that if their engine fails they'll never make the runway. They're exposing themselves to the risks of a short field approach believing they're flying the perfect profile.
To the guys that do this: start your final higher, use flaps and or slip and speed control to get your aiming point in the right place in the windscreen. Practice this until it feels like cheating to correct with power. Once you can do that you'll be a much better pilot and have a lot more in your skills bag to draw upon in a phase of flight that many find to be the most challenging.
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with doing it if you know why you are doing it. I see plenty of spam can drivers who fly 3 degree approaches and seem not to care that if their engine fails they'll never make the runway. They're exposing themselves to the risks of a short field approach believing they're flying the perfect profile.
To the guys that do this: start your final higher, use flaps and or slip and speed control to get your aiming point in the right place in the windscreen. Practice this until it feels like cheating to correct with power. Once you can do that you'll be a much better pilot and have a lot more in your skills bag to draw upon in a phase of flight that many find to be the most challenging.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with doing it if you know why you are doing it. I see plenty of spam can drivers who fly 3 degree approaches and seem not to care that if their engine fails they'll never make the runway. They're exposing themselves to the risks of a short field approach believing they're flying the perfect profile.
If you fly from Bournemeouth to Jersey(which will take a lot longer than a 2 miile final) and have an engine failure you will never make a runway either and given the choice I would rather land in an undershoot than in tbe English Channel anyday!!!
The period of the circuit on which you are on final is only going to be one or two minutes usually and you will be at low power setting. In terms of risk you should me more concerned about the first 500 feet in the climbout with the engine working flat out because you arnt going to be able to make the runway then either, are you? However at an airfield that does have a hostile approach area consideration should be given to flying a full glide approach to the threshold
If you can't keep the aircraft pointing straight down the runway with crossed controls, the crosswind is out of limits.
The only place you can determine if the cross wind is out of limits is at 33 feet above the runway because thats where the anemometer is but you also need to consider that its not over the runway.
Whats happening on the approach only tells you its a crosswind it doesnt tell you if its a limiting crosswind only the anemometer and the conditions at the threshold can tell you if its limiting
A demonstrated crosswind component is not limiting thats why its called DEMONSTRATED(doesnt matter if its in the limitations section either), all that it means is that the manufactures test pilot could only find that amount of crosswind at the time of test and that, and this is the important bit, the test pilot also determined that full rudder deflection was not required to align the aircraft with the centreline. The crosswind limit is reached when in a steady wind the full rudder defection is needed to align the a/c with the centreline with tbe a/c still stable and you dont need to be John Farley or a Red Arrow to work that out!
There are also some caveats to this:
Gusty crosswinds
Wet runways
Contaminated runways
Runway width
Recency
Personel limits.
Your flying club/school should have a manual containing crosswind limits applicable to students and PPL's especialy if the flight manual only quotes a demonstrated crosswind.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "demonstrated" crosswind value will be stated in Section 5, Performance, of a "GAMA format" Flight Manual. It will not be found in Section 2, Limitations, because were it to be there, it would become a limitation, and it is not.
The test pilot, who confirms the demonstrated crosswind capability, will find the required crosswind, which will be at least 0.2 Vso. There is no reason for the test pilot to demonstrate a value greater than that, as doing so, and stating it, would only invite liability, for zero corporate gain.
If the operator chooses to limit the use of their aircraft to a stated crosswind "limit" that is their prerogative, as they are responsible for the plane. But, doing so rigidly introduces other unintended consequences, such as a pilot having to divert because of reported crosswind, and not getting the plane back as intended.
Other than for very gusty crosswinds, or mechanical turbulence, I have never found the 0.2Vso crosswind intensity terribly challenging, so pilots should probably challenge themselves a little more to build confidence!
The test pilot, who confirms the demonstrated crosswind capability, will find the required crosswind, which will be at least 0.2 Vso. There is no reason for the test pilot to demonstrate a value greater than that, as doing so, and stating it, would only invite liability, for zero corporate gain.
If the operator chooses to limit the use of their aircraft to a stated crosswind "limit" that is their prerogative, as they are responsible for the plane. But, doing so rigidly introduces other unintended consequences, such as a pilot having to divert because of reported crosswind, and not getting the plane back as intended.
Other than for very gusty crosswinds, or mechanical turbulence, I have never found the 0.2Vso crosswind intensity terribly challenging, so pilots should probably challenge themselves a little more to build confidence!
This is a bit of Tiger Moth old folk lore theory from the days when engines were not so reliable.
If you fly from Bournemeouth to Jersey(which will take a lot longer than a 2 miile final) and have an engine failure you will never make a runway either and given the choice I would rather land in an undershoot than in tbe English Channel anyday!!!
The period of the circuit on which you are on final is only going to be one or two minutes usually and you will be at low power setting. In terms of risk you should me more concerned about the first 500 feet in the climbout with the engine working flat out because you arnt going to be able to make the runway then either, are you? However at an airfield that does have a hostile approach area consideration should be given to flying a full glide approach to the threshold
If you fly from Bournemeouth to Jersey(which will take a lot longer than a 2 miile final) and have an engine failure you will never make a runway either and given the choice I would rather land in an undershoot than in tbe English Channel anyday!!!
The period of the circuit on which you are on final is only going to be one or two minutes usually and you will be at low power setting. In terms of risk you should me more concerned about the first 500 feet in the climbout with the engine working flat out because you arnt going to be able to make the runway then either, are you? However at an airfield that does have a hostile approach area consideration should be given to flying a full glide approach to the threshold
"Flying over the sea is more dangerous" ? Flying over water (or other areas with little options for a forced landing) is the PiC's option, to be considered before flight. Risk assessment and all that stuff. But the one risk has nothing to see with the other. It is not because one accepts the risk of flying of over possibly dangerous areas that one should take unnecessary risks in the approach or final phase of flight.
"A bit of Tiger Moth folklore" come on, give us facts, or at least arguments, not tabloid talk
"when engines were not so reliable" so a risk that was not acceptable with a 99,0% reliable engine does become acceptable with a 99,9 % reliable engine? Or are you the inventor of the famous long wanted 100,0% reliable engine?
"Risk on final is limited" yes it is. Limited but not zero - unless at a safe altitude. Which is in easy reach for the vast majority of planes and the vast majority of pilots.
"The first instants after take-off are far more dangerous" yes they may well be, depending on the surroundings. But again, that is no excuse for choosing a less safe procedure for final.
I say again because it seems to go down hard with some:
There is not a single reason to NOT come in fairly high, cut power as soon as certainly within gliding distance from the threshold, and sideslip off the excess altitude so as to touch down on the numbers.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hear hear.
There's no reason for the risk exposure. To put it another way: Once my engine is shown to be as reliable as gravity, I'll start flying three degree approaches for no special reason also.
Until that happens though, I'll carry on flying my approaches in a safer and more challenging/interesting/safer way than a cruise descent all the way in. In fact, even if my engine became as reliable as gravity I still wouldn't as it would remove one of the safest and yet most rewarding challenges in flying; touching down on the numbers from a glide approach.
There's no reason for the risk exposure. To put it another way: Once my engine is shown to be as reliable as gravity, I'll start flying three degree approaches for no special reason also.
Until that happens though, I'll carry on flying my approaches in a safer and more challenging/interesting/safer way than a cruise descent all the way in. In fact, even if my engine became as reliable as gravity I still wouldn't as it would remove one of the safest and yet most rewarding challenges in flying; touching down on the numbers from a glide approach.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strange really beacause Ive spent a lifetime sitting beside quite a lot of pilots who cant actually make the runway even when flying a glide approach!
Facts? Well in nearly 25,000 hours of flying Ive never had an engine failure in any aircraft on final and I only know of one SE engine failure on final ever. I know plenty of accidents were pilots have gone into the sea while attempting to fly over water.
Risk needs to be considered against time exposed to that risk. Obviously you cannot remove all risk but to suggest that the short time that an aircraft is on final is an above average risk that warrants serious consideration is just ridiculous.
Facts? Well in nearly 25,000 hours of flying Ive never had an engine failure in any aircraft on final and I only know of one SE engine failure on final ever. I know plenty of accidents were pilots have gone into the sea while attempting to fly over water.
Risk needs to be considered against time exposed to that risk. Obviously you cannot remove all risk but to suggest that the short time that an aircraft is on final is an above average risk that warrants serious consideration is just ridiculous.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you can't keep the aircraft pointing straight down the runway with crossed controls, the crosswind is out of limits.
Yes, but only for the crossed controls method of drift control.
Crab or crossed controls down the approach is personal preference. It's short final that matters. I think this 'kicking it straight in the flare' business is a form of madness.
What do you do if you arrive at your destination and the cross winds are way, way above the demonstrated cross wind for the airplane you are flying and there is no where else to land?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you do if you arrive at your destination and the cross winds are way, way above the demonstrated cross wind for the airplane you are flying and there is no where else to land?
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe the difference in approach stems from my background in gliding and microlighting where for different reasons I was always taught that power was a privilege rather than a right.
I also have never experienced a total engine failure, though I've had two partial failures. However, I do fly behind engines maintained by amateurs that have a MTBF of a couple of thousand hours, which tells me that at the rate I fly, I might experience one or two failures in my lifetime. If that failure happens to be on approach then fine, and I do appreciate that its very unlikely and that most failures happen in the cruise.
Funnily enough I did once have an engine stop during approach, but it was a maladjusted throttle stop and a quick turn of the key got it going again. Not what I'd call a failure though. In that instance I would have been high enough to clear the houses in the undershoot and make the runway.
Apologies to all for getting sucked into thread drift!
I also have never experienced a total engine failure, though I've had two partial failures. However, I do fly behind engines maintained by amateurs that have a MTBF of a couple of thousand hours, which tells me that at the rate I fly, I might experience one or two failures in my lifetime. If that failure happens to be on approach then fine, and I do appreciate that its very unlikely and that most failures happen in the cruise.
Funnily enough I did once have an engine stop during approach, but it was a maladjusted throttle stop and a quick turn of the key got it going again. Not what I'd call a failure though. In that instance I would have been high enough to clear the houses in the undershoot and make the runway.
Apologies to all for getting sucked into thread drift!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: U.K.
Posts: 805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I learned, I was taught to kick off the drift with rudder immediately before touchdown, then let it land. With about 50 hours in my book, I went to Canada for a holiday and got myself a Canadian tourist pilot permit so I could try out Canadian flying. Naturally a checkout on a Canadian C150 was necessary and we had a 10 knot crosswind. I took off for my first circuit, managed to kick off the drift reasonably successfully, and put it down. At this point my instructor gave me some words of wisdom which have served me well for the remainder of my flying career. He said: "Huh, guess you were taught by an ex RAF instructor(true), now try my technique. Drop your wing into wind and line the aircraft up on the runway with rudder. Continue and land it initially on the lowest mainwheel. You can land 'em, no sweat with 40 kts across that way!" Since that advice was received, I have found it to work successfully on all light single and twins I have ever flown, Twin Otters, Shorts 330s and Jetstreams. I have also been advised by colleagues that it also works on B707s, B737s, B747s, DC3s, DC6s and A330s.
P.P.
P.P.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is the bottom line.
A skilled pilot will be able to handle cross winds using the slipping method, the crabbing to kick straight at touch down or any combination of these methods.
Then you can comfortably use whatever method suits the conditions and the airplane you are flying.
Not all airplanes can be landed using the crossed control wing down method.
There you go gang....
.... that about finishes that subject.
A skilled pilot will be able to handle cross winds using the slipping method, the crabbing to kick straight at touch down or any combination of these methods.
Then you can comfortably use whatever method suits the conditions and the airplane you are flying.
Not all airplanes can be landed using the crossed control wing down method.
There you go gang....
.... that about finishes that subject.