Commercial flying and job prospects
I am an aeronautical engineer Bose I probably play at being an academic as much as I play at being a commercial pilot. What I do is work in aviation and enjoy it.
Why are you still doing it if it's that bad?
G
Why are you still doing it if it's that bad?
G
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Why are you still doing it if it's that bad?
What I do is work in aviation and enjoy it.
I still enjoy aspects of working in aviation and still enjoy most of the flying. What I don't like is the way the industry has been run down and the gullible taken advantage off. Threads like this with people giving positive support to "go do it" does nothing more than part a fool from their money.
Like I said, give up your day job "in aviation" and actually have a go at being a full time pilot and then extoll its virtues. Tell us exactly how you walked into a job and how it pays the same or better than your current career.
You play at commercial aviation, a CRI allows you to play at being an Instructor with the syndicates etc you are involved with. Your CPL without an IR does nothing more than give you an opportunity to tell everyone you are a "commercial pilot" but the reality is that you are not employable in any useful sense in commercial aviation. So you are a highly qualified academic and aeronautical engineer earning a pretty good whack who dabbles in a bit of ego flattering "commercial flying". That does not give you the right to give advice to someone considering giving up a career to "follow the dream" and spend themselves into oblivion for a job thats most unlikely to ever appear.
You only have to look at the people on here over the 15 odd years we have been posting who have come and gone following the dream and very few of them actually made it. You know enough of them personally that gave up and went onto other jobs.
Its about time as an industry we started being honest with ourselves and each other about the nature of it rather than perpetuating the bull ****.
Or improving things?
Personally, the only thing I want to do full time us work in aviation. I don't want to be "just" an engineer, or pilot, or academic. But I know plenty of people who are very happy being one thing only - but if you aren't, change things from within, or move out are perhaps more useful than complaining from inside?
But actually the main advice I offered was to look towards working within aviation and see if the OP's existing skills have a fit. There's far more to aviation than just scheduled flying - which yes, I personally would need to finish my IR off to do.
G
Personally, the only thing I want to do full time us work in aviation. I don't want to be "just" an engineer, or pilot, or academic. But I know plenty of people who are very happy being one thing only - but if you aren't, change things from within, or move out are perhaps more useful than complaining from inside?
But actually the main advice I offered was to look towards working within aviation and see if the OP's existing skills have a fit. There's far more to aviation than just scheduled flying - which yes, I personally would need to finish my IR off to do.
G
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Threads like this with people giving positive support to "go do it" does nothing more than part a fool from their money.
What I don't like is the way the industry has been run down and the gullible taken advantage off.
There are very few (please tell me that I'm wrong and I'll swap across!) jobs/industries today where 'love for the subject' will guarantee you anything more than a reasonable go at it. Aviation is no different in that respect and, like I said above, at least it is a growing industry and overall relatively profitable. Like most places, if you are not only good at what you do, but can also show something 'else' to take your job above and beyond, there is a chance to shine.
Having said that, no one is disagreeing with you re. becoming a CAT tube driver. It does seem to have become a role where the 'else' bit is being bred out of the practitioners and they end up being boxed in and limited to what they can be used for. But whereas it is maybe not surprising that a young lad or lass with no other experience but youthful dreams makes the choice to limit themselves to such a job, what I am saying (as is Genghis, I believe) is that once you have some experience and some different perspectives, there are roles within aviation where you may be able to both get some flying as part of your job and benefit from your experience and have an interesting job and good lifestyle.
You may call that 'playing pilot', but that does sound a little bit like sour grapes and snobbery from a grumpy old man and devalues your posts ...
B.
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You may call that 'playing pilot', but that does sound a little bit like sour grapes and snobbery from a grumpy old man and devalues your posts ...
I am giving a truthful perspective on the industry from the inside. I watch too many people come and go having parted with huge amounts of money and achieving nothing.
Interns in other industry pay for an education with time and effort I know of none where they are asked to pay to work.....
Interns in other industry pay for an education with time and effort I know of none where they are asked to pay to work.....
It'll cost you £10-£20k for a year (plus your living expenses), and you'll spend several months of that working at your own expense on somebody else's design or research project ! The good news is that those people then tend to go into extremely good jobs very quickly - whilst there's a surplus of job-hunting fATPLs, there's a shortage of good MEng or MSc qualified engineers. If anybody's tempted - link below...
https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/courses/...le-design.html
That said, I'd struggle also to think of any professional education quite as expensive as training as a professional pilot - and pay-to-fly is particularly dubious.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 13th Aug 2015 at 10:14.
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It's a real quandary.
I know people who have completed modular and integrated training and have walked straight into jobs. I also know people who have completed training many years ago and have not yet found anything. There are also people who have spent at least 4 or 5 years full time instructing before moving on.
It all comes down to your perception of risk and benefits vs expenditure.
When you read posts on here saying it's no different to paying for a legal or medical degree and working on reduced benefits / remuneration as a junior doctor or lawyer, I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish. At the end of the day Pilot licenses are not as transferable to other jobs as a medical or law degree is for example. Therefore you have spent £50-£100k on a very particular and specialised career path.
Again, the other posts you will see are along the lines of well you don't want to reach 75 and think if only. This mantra is a total waste of time. The decision to commence a flying career should be made with the brain only and emotion shouldn't come into it. It's the same as somebody saying "live every day like it's your last", not realistic as nobody would want to visit the post office or cut their toenails if it was their last day, but sometimes these things must be done. Anyway I digress!
I know people who have completed modular and integrated training and have walked straight into jobs. I also know people who have completed training many years ago and have not yet found anything. There are also people who have spent at least 4 or 5 years full time instructing before moving on.
It all comes down to your perception of risk and benefits vs expenditure.
When you read posts on here saying it's no different to paying for a legal or medical degree and working on reduced benefits / remuneration as a junior doctor or lawyer, I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish. At the end of the day Pilot licenses are not as transferable to other jobs as a medical or law degree is for example. Therefore you have spent £50-£100k on a very particular and specialised career path.
Again, the other posts you will see are along the lines of well you don't want to reach 75 and think if only. This mantra is a total waste of time. The decision to commence a flying career should be made with the brain only and emotion shouldn't come into it. It's the same as somebody saying "live every day like it's your last", not realistic as nobody would want to visit the post office or cut their toenails if it was their last day, but sometimes these things must be done. Anyway I digress!
I did my PPL because I love flying, and my BEng degree because I wanted to work as an aeronautical engineer. Both worked out fine.
I did my PhD simply because I wanted one, and my CPL mostly for the benefit of my ego. As it turns out, both have massively benefitted my career - which wasn't the objective. Put those together, and you get somebody managing aviation research - which is mostly me at the moment.
Possibly I have done relatively well because I just keep adding "stuff I can do", and make my only real absolute that I want to stay in aviation.
I can think of a former PhD student of mine, who did a good aeronautical engineering PhD, but is determined "only" to go for the straight academic career path. In that, he's been very unsuccessful.
I can certainly think of people who "only" wanted to be airline pilots, and have failed miserably.
I flew with somebody the other day who went PPL -->ambulance driver --> CPL --> instructor --> ambulance technician --> air ambulance pilot. He seemed to have had an erratic career, but a lot of fun, and very little time unemployed.
Maybe flexibility is the key - the more open minded you are about the stuff you're prepared to do with your skills and qualifications, and the more prepared you are to add to those without being too narrow minded, maybe the better chances of doing things you will enjoy (and pay the bills!)
G
I did my PhD simply because I wanted one, and my CPL mostly for the benefit of my ego. As it turns out, both have massively benefitted my career - which wasn't the objective. Put those together, and you get somebody managing aviation research - which is mostly me at the moment.
Possibly I have done relatively well because I just keep adding "stuff I can do", and make my only real absolute that I want to stay in aviation.
I can think of a former PhD student of mine, who did a good aeronautical engineering PhD, but is determined "only" to go for the straight academic career path. In that, he's been very unsuccessful.
I can certainly think of people who "only" wanted to be airline pilots, and have failed miserably.
I flew with somebody the other day who went PPL -->ambulance driver --> CPL --> instructor --> ambulance technician --> air ambulance pilot. He seemed to have had an erratic career, but a lot of fun, and very little time unemployed.
Maybe flexibility is the key - the more open minded you are about the stuff you're prepared to do with your skills and qualifications, and the more prepared you are to add to those without being too narrow minded, maybe the better chances of doing things you will enjoy (and pay the bills!)
G
Interns in other industry pay for an education with time and effort I know of none where they are asked to pay to work.....
Many industries e.g. the UN, fashion seem keen on unpaid interns - and arguably it's cheaper to be a PTF pilot living somewhere cheap than an unpaid UN intern living in Geneva. My partner's a musician and her orchestras now comprise a large number of interns, which the orchestras are paid for taking.
The average female medical student in the UK is expected to retire without having paid off her student debt. The wards are so hostile that 1/4 leave medicine within the first two years of qualifying. A large proportion of the rest leave for the antipodes where I'm told life is better.
This year I've treated 1 professor for a serious suicide attempt, two lecturers for slicing deep wounds into their arms, and another who was biting large chunks out of herself.
It's hard out there, whichever walk of life you choose. I rarely meet anyone these days who enjoys their work.
1 professor for a serious suicide attempt, two lecturers for slicing deep wounds into their arms,
In earth sciences, a PhD student is typically expected to live on about £8k.pa for 4 years whilst working silly hours to deliver their independent research. Engineering ups the money a bit, life sciences just double the hours.
A typical university professor is expected to bring in £200k.pa in research income, teach 10+ hours per week, generate at-least one high impact research publication per year, and is usually managing a selection of people, courses and budgets. That typically maps to around 60 hours per week, 3 weeks holiday taken per year, for an income around £60k. Few retire much below 70 these days.
Strangely however, as a profession they are one of the longest lived. There are theories that whilst their workload is high, the actual control they have over how they deliver that is significantly greater than most other workers, which is a relative recipe for health. Not, of-course if it all gets too much for you and you try and jump off a bridge.
G
Though remember that the generation of academics who are dying now, worked under very different conditions from those existing today.
As an aside, I notice that a disproportionate number of my age ninety-something patients were in the RAF and few than I would expect were in the other branches of the armed forces.
As an aside, I notice that a disproportionate number of my age ninety-something patients were in the RAF and few than I would expect were in the other branches of the armed forces.
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Even if you're not doing it for employment, you could still do a CPL. I did it (along with the 14 ATPL exams) as a personal challenge, plus I had a lot of fun doing it and learnt a lot of useful stuff (plus a lot of stuff that was completely pointless...) along the way.
Worth it career-wise : NO
Worth it personally : YES
You will have to make a call on doing the full IR though before the exams expire. I've decided not to bother and have an IR(R) for the times I need to use it in the UK. That can limit trips abroad but it doesn't worry me as I'm basically a fair-weather pilot.
Worth it career-wise : NO
Worth it personally : YES
You will have to make a call on doing the full IR though before the exams expire. I've decided not to bother and have an IR(R) for the times I need to use it in the UK. That can limit trips abroad but it doesn't worry me as I'm basically a fair-weather pilot.
