Strange encounter in the clouds tonight
I don't see what protection a fight plan can offer in these circumstances.
So far as protection goes in NZ, it's quite simple really, everyone flying IFR needs to be on an IFR plan in order for ATC to be able to provide traffic information.
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Over here, we don't have any kind of unified ATC.
There are vast tracts of the country where you cannot get any kind of service at all. Crazy eh?
So when you're flying IFR OCAS, it's quite likely that you're not speaking to anyone at all.
There are vast tracts of the country where you cannot get any kind of service at all. Crazy eh?
So when you're flying IFR OCAS, it's quite likely that you're not speaking to anyone at all.
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No doubt PPRuNers have before been informed that in a cloud in uncontrolled airspace in the Uk it is perfectly legal to fly your glider, provided that you are wearing a parachute, and if entering cloud near a gliding club, announce your intention on the cloud flying frequency, and begin your climb from the base of the cloud.
It is also useful to have sensible cloud flying instruments, and these days FLARM would also be sensible.
No use asking controllers to separate gliders, presented with the equivalent of a swarm of gnats on the screen.
If New Zealand is so very tightly regulated, do they permit gliders to fly in cloud? Perhaps I shall pose this question on the antipodean forum!
It is also useful to have sensible cloud flying instruments, and these days FLARM would also be sensible.
No use asking controllers to separate gliders, presented with the equivalent of a swarm of gnats on the screen.
If New Zealand is so very tightly regulated, do they permit gliders to fly in cloud? Perhaps I shall pose this question on the antipodean forum!
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I'm not sure how your ATC handles it, but over here prior to vacating controlled airspace ATC advise you of any IFR traffic affecting you out side of controlled airspace
Many hobby fliers rarely enter controlled airspace anyway, so rarely vacate controlled airspace - it's quite often quicker and easier to go round class D than negotiate a transit.
mary meagher: If New Zealand is so very tightly regulated, do they permit gliders to fly in cloud? Perhaps I shall pose this question on the antipodean forum!
Gertrude the Wombat: They don't here - they might (or might not) be able to see traffic OCAS on a radar screen, but they'd have no way of knowing its flight rules.
stevelup: Over here, we don't have any kind of unified ATC.
There are vast tracts of the country where you cannot get any kind of service at all. Crazy eh?
So when you're flying IFR OCAS, it's quite likely that you're not speaking to anyone at all.
There are vast tracts of the country where you cannot get any kind of service at all. Crazy eh?
So when you're flying IFR OCAS, it's quite likely that you're not speaking to anyone at all.
Flying IFR outside of controlled airspace not knowing who else might be there make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
I guess you guys are used to it.
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If that gets the hair on the back of your neck up for potential for mid airs you want to stay well clear of Whacky Races Clusterf&$ks or fly-ins as some folks call them here in the UK.
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The statistic that tells you all you really need to know is that there has not been one single instance of aircraft colliding with one another whilst flying in IMC OCAS since the second world war.
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27/09.......in the UK flights operating on an IFR flight plan only get protection in Controlled Airspace, out side Controlled Airspace they get no protection at all unless they are recieving some form of radar service from an ATC radar unit, in this case they will be offered either a traffic service or deconfliction service. Basically they will be advised of any known or observed traffic by the controller and the flight will either take his own avoiding action under a Traffic service or will be given avoiding action if recieving a deconfliction service.
Many commercial flights in the UK operate IFR outside controlled airspace because the airfield they are flying to has no controlled airspace to either protect it or an area en route to it. For instance Ryanair traffic inbound to Londonderry Northern Ireland will fly along controlled airspace as far as it can but at some time will have to leave for the final 30 miles or so to the airfield. They will still be recieving a radar service from Scottish control but traffic information will be only given to the pilot on traffic the contoller either knows about or can see on his radar.
Also dont get mixed up with IFR and IMC, an aircraft operating on an IFR flight plan may indeed be operating in VMC throughout its flight.
By the way, my ex ATC boss Is now running your ATC area control centre but it looks like she is having a tough time!!
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/video-...#axzz3hPF4lDp4
Many commercial flights in the UK operate IFR outside controlled airspace because the airfield they are flying to has no controlled airspace to either protect it or an area en route to it. For instance Ryanair traffic inbound to Londonderry Northern Ireland will fly along controlled airspace as far as it can but at some time will have to leave for the final 30 miles or so to the airfield. They will still be recieving a radar service from Scottish control but traffic information will be only given to the pilot on traffic the contoller either knows about or can see on his radar.
Also dont get mixed up with IFR and IMC, an aircraft operating on an IFR flight plan may indeed be operating in VMC throughout its flight.
By the way, my ex ATC boss Is now running your ATC area control centre but it looks like she is having a tough time!!
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/video-...#axzz3hPF4lDp4
Last edited by fisbangwollop; 30th Jul 2015 at 19:53. Reason: Update info
wsmempson: The statistic that tells you all you really need to know is that there has not been one single instance of aircraft colliding with one another whilst flying in IMC OCAS since the second world war.
That sort of statistical analysis can lead to tears. That's exactly the sort of analysis that lead to the space shuttle disaster. Very low probability but with a disastrous outcome. As I see it it's a bit like Russian Roulette. I can imagine the uproar if such an accident ever happened.
fisbangwallop
It's the same here, IFR flights have no protection outside CA. Once outside of controlled airspace there will be no traffic info based on radar plots, the ATC unit providing radio coverage doesn't have that info. Traffic information is passed on by an area information ATC unit based on the IFR plans in the system and position reports from airborne aircraft.
Yes I'm well aware of the difference between IFR and IMC and VFR and VMC. This is what triggered my original post in this thread. It seemed to me that someone was apparently flying on VFR rules but actually going IMC.
The CAR's in New Zealand state
Visual Flight Rules
91.301 VFR meteorological minima
(a) Except as provided in rule 91.303, and paragraphs (b) and (c), a pilot-in-command must not operate an aircraft under VFR—
(1) when the flight visibility is less than that prescribed for the corresponding class of airspace in Table 4; or
(2) at a distance from clouds that is less than that prescribed for the corresponding class of airspace in Table 4.
(b) Except as provided in rule 91.303, a pilot-in-command must not takeoff or land an aircraft, or fly in the vicinity of an aerodrome, under VFR when the flight visibility, or the cloud ceiling, is less than—(1) at aerodromes within a control zone, that prescribed in Table 5; and
(2) at aerodromes in uncontrolled airspace, that prescribed in Table 6.
(c) A pilot-in-command of—(1) a helicopter may operate in Class G airspace with a flight visibility of less than 5 km if manoeuvred at a speed that gives adequate opportunity to observe other traffic or any obstructions in order to avoid collisions
For Class G airspace (uncontrolled) Table 4 states
Above 3000 feet AMSL or 1000 feet above terrain whichever is the higher,
2 km horizontally, 1000 feet vertically, visibility, 5 km below 10,000 ft, 8 km above 10,000.
2 km horizontally, 1000 feet vertically, visibility, 5 km below 10,000 ft, 8 km above 10,000.
At or below 3000 feet AMSL or 1000 feet above the terrain whichever is the higher
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, 5 km visibility
Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, 5 km visibility
The exceptions in rule 903 referred to above do not relate to uncontrolled airspace.
If you cannot meet the VFR minima you need to comply with IFR rules and the IFR rules state
Instrument Flight Rules
91.407 IFR flight plan
(a) A pilot-in-command of an aircraft must—
(1) submit a flight plan to an appropriate ATS unit prior to any flight under IFR;
As I have since learned you guys don't need to be on an IFR plan to fly IFR.
Last edited by 27/09; 30th Jul 2015 at 22:40.
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Actually a very interesting thread. It seems that the procedures in the UK for uncontrolled airspace IFR are working. There are many more IFR flights than space shuttle launches, enough to be statically significantly I say. Then there is always the TCAS.
Just as a side note, I don't have any figures but I imagine there are very few recreational PPL IFR pilots in New Zealand. So I expect most pilots in IMC are being paid to be there or training, not much playing.
I have considered the IFR rating to build my skills but know it I got it I would be unlikely to keep it current.
Apart from the 40 hours or so to get the rating some of the currency requirements are:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), the holder of an instrument
rating must not exercise the privileges of the rating unless the holder has,—
(1) within the immediately preceding 12 months,—
(i) successfully demonstrated to a flight examiner
competency in accordance with rule 61.801(a)(6) for the
appropriate category of aircraft; and
(ii) the person who conducts the competency demonstration
certifies the successful completion of the check in the
pilot’s logbook in accordance with rule 61.29.; and
(2) within the immediately preceding 3 months,—
(i) either met the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) or
completed at least 3 hours instrument time (which must
have included at least 1 hour instrument flight time); and
(ii) carried out at least 3 published instrument approach
procedures (1 of which may be performed in an approved
synthetic flight trainer); and
Just as a side note, I don't have any figures but I imagine there are very few recreational PPL IFR pilots in New Zealand. So I expect most pilots in IMC are being paid to be there or training, not much playing.
I have considered the IFR rating to build my skills but know it I got it I would be unlikely to keep it current.
Apart from the 40 hours or so to get the rating some of the currency requirements are:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), the holder of an instrument
rating must not exercise the privileges of the rating unless the holder has,—
(1) within the immediately preceding 12 months,—
(i) successfully demonstrated to a flight examiner
competency in accordance with rule 61.801(a)(6) for the
appropriate category of aircraft; and
(ii) the person who conducts the competency demonstration
certifies the successful completion of the check in the
pilot’s logbook in accordance with rule 61.29.; and
(2) within the immediately preceding 3 months,—
(i) either met the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) or
completed at least 3 hours instrument time (which must
have included at least 1 hour instrument flight time); and
(ii) carried out at least 3 published instrument approach
procedures (1 of which may be performed in an approved
synthetic flight trainer); and
500ft
Most GA aircraft don't have TCAS and there's plenty of them running around IFR. I doubt many GA aircaft in the UK have TCAS. For TCAS equipped aircraft TCAS relies on an operative Transponder set to Mode C. I don't see TCAS as a valid mitigating factor.
I know of several PPL's and CPL's who don't fly commercially who hold and use an IR.
Most GA aircraft don't have TCAS and there's plenty of them running around IFR. I doubt many GA aircaft in the UK have TCAS. For TCAS equipped aircraft TCAS relies on an operative Transponder set to Mode C. I don't see TCAS as a valid mitigating factor.
I know of several PPL's and CPL's who don't fly commercially who hold and use an IR.
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Apart from the 40 hours or so to get the rating some of the currency requirements are:
With this rating UK hobby pilots can fly in cloud and can fly approaches. The main limitation is that we're still not allowed in class A, so no airways.
