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Disturbing Dream...

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Disturbing Dream...

Old 13th May 2015, 14:34
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My training covered "unusual attitude" recovery which I was happy with and was also built on the premise to "feel what the airframe is doing", for example, in the event of the stall warning audible not going off.

I think there needs to be a lot more though in the syllabus at stalling/spinning in different scenarios to allow your body to feel the sensation!

The training was also built on the premise that PREVENTION is better than cure: stop the stall you will stop the spin - if it is as a result of a stall - if in the original scenario which I posted.. it was "recognise the attitude", positioning and accurate speed/altitude and visual picture that will keep you stable in the approach.

I have also got better at the "finger tip" flying and it helps when the aircraft is in TRIM - but my instructor always said "DO NOT FLY THE AIRCRAFT ON TRIM ALONE" - Pick the attitude/hold the attitude you want and TRIM for the attitude which will give you the speed and then trim!

Anyway it was good seeing some of the different views etc.

Thank You everyone.

Scoobster
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:01
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my instructor always said "DO NOT FLY THE AIRCRAFT ON TRIM ALONE" - Pick the attitude/hold the attitude you want and TRIM for the attitude which will give you the speed and then trim!
EXACTLY!

I think there needs to be a lot more though in the syllabus at stalling/spinning in different scenarios to allow your body to feel the sensation!
As the "student" flying with the instructor, you can always supplement your syllabus with extra training you request....
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:49
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Originally Posted by Step Turn View Post
As the "student" flying with the instructor, you can always supplement your syllabus with extra training you request....
Try asking your instructor to teach you to how to fly a circuit with the ASI covered up.

It will certainly help you develop a feel for what the airframe is doing.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:40
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MJ - 'SCAB' was how I was originally taught to remember the possible signs of an approaching stall - just a little aide memoire!

Speed, Controls, Attitude, Buffet (You could, of course, add another 'S' for Stall Warner if you wish!).
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Old 14th May 2015, 00:04
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First off dear Original Poster:

buy the book, "Stick and Rudder". Read it. Repeat. Repeat until you know every word by heart. Ignore those who say it is sexist (written 70 years ago plus) or minor anachronisms like '"FLIPPER" instead of elevator (though his rationale is exceptional).


Second. Learn the difference between a spin and spiral.

Third. Know what limits to bank angle or prudent in the traffic pattern.

I would limit myself to 15degrees on crosswind turn. and 15 degrees on base to final. You will have to start the turn earlier to use shallower banks.

And never exceed 30 degrees of bank anywhere in the pattern (bonafide emergency aside like banking to avoid collision).


A very fine student of mine got into a position of head on with another plane on the wrong base leg (student was on left base, intruder on right).


He had to maneuver and got the stall warning. Executed a great recovery at low altitude at a mountainous airport and lived to tell me about it. We had talked about very low altitude stall recovery just days before and how we can avoid stalls by being aware of where they occur and what can lead up to them.


SILLERT VI

your PA 38 story is interesting to me. I've never been able to trim below 60 knots. There has been some good discussion about being "TRIMMED" and it is vital to good flying.

The feel of the wheel tells you the speed. Clutching hand and all from some article years ago.

I am guessing you were not trimmed.
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Old 14th May 2015, 07:08
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Trim is very helpful but don't forget not all aircraft have a trimmer!

To the OP - Make sure you know the difference between a spin and spiral dive as you seem very confused between the two?

Oh and all this talk of over banking - Don't forget about the rudder! You're far more likely to spin in if you sub consciously rudder around the final turn in an effort to avoid over banking as that has been drummed into your head!

SS
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Old 14th May 2015, 09:30
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Originally Posted by skyhighfallguy View Post
your PA 38 story is interesting to me. I've never been able to trim below 60 knots.
Never been able as in "ran out of trim" or never been able as in "unable to trim due to there being little control force left"?

I've done plenty of slow flying in the type both in VMC & IMC and don't recall ever actually running out of trim. Running short of elevator authority in the flare is another matter and you need to be diligent in doing your W&B calculations.

I'm one of the those folks who absolutely detests flying out of trim. Flying with nose-down trim is, to me, much the same as setting your alarm clock ten minutes fast - the OH swears by it & I swear at it - it drives me nuts.
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Old 14th May 2015, 11:41
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I do not deliberately fly aircraft out of trim, though if the maneuver is dynamic, I won't retrim all the time either. The trim system is not provided to fly the plane, it is provided to relieve the pilot of prolonged control forces during stable flight.

Control forces are a vital element of our being able to fly the plane. Without the feedback of a change in control force, and the increased control force as G increases, pilots would be having a terrible time flying with a failed ASI, and tearing the wings off with high G in tight turns. The design requirements for certifying the aircraft specify that in some conditions control forces increase, and not reverse.

I've flown a couple of deficient aircraft, whose elevator and/or rudder did not comply with these requirements, and they were very challenging to fly safely in certain conditions.

Tab or all moving H stab will produce more positive trimming results than a spring system (which is my distant recollection of the PA-38). But none are expected to be so precise that the pilot no longer has to do some flying!

A properly loaded certified plane will not run out of pitch trim in normal flying configurations - if it does, something is wrong. My experience is that Cessna 182 and 206 can run out of nose up trim just a little, while being glided at forward C of G.
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