Light AC down Dundee Scotland
Join Date: May 2015
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I almost never comment on pprune and I don’t participate in any “social media” at all, but I would like to forestall speculation about the competence or judgement of the pilot, by clarifying something of his experience.
I had the pleasure of recruiting and training this gentleman for his first commercial flying position, and, a couple of years later, mentoring, training and promoting him to his first multi-crew turboprop command. During his time with us, he flew mostly in the western islands off Scotland, the Faeroes, and Scandinavia, amongst some of the worst weather conditions I personally have flown in, where the winter gusts often exceed double those reported to pertain on the day of this tragic accident – and almost always with a strong cross-wind element.
We had faith in his competence to command our turboprop aircraft, its crew and passengers, and, more importantly, we had faith in his judgement in deciding when pressing on was inappropriate. I feel sure our faith was equalled by that of his later corporate clients (including a famous racing driver - by definition, someone who would recognise, but not tolerate, incompetence in a pilot if he saw it), as well as the international biz-av manufacturer who employed him full-time to demonstrate its new aircraft worldwide to corporate clients.
This is a terrible sad loss of a thoroughly competent, cheerful, ever smiley professional – my heart goes out to his partner and small children, who, although I had not seen him for a number of years, I know he truly adored.
I believe I also worked briefly with the other gentleman involved 20 years ago - also a man of great good cheer and warmth - and I would also like to express my condolences to the bereaved family in this case.
I had the pleasure of recruiting and training this gentleman for his first commercial flying position, and, a couple of years later, mentoring, training and promoting him to his first multi-crew turboprop command. During his time with us, he flew mostly in the western islands off Scotland, the Faeroes, and Scandinavia, amongst some of the worst weather conditions I personally have flown in, where the winter gusts often exceed double those reported to pertain on the day of this tragic accident – and almost always with a strong cross-wind element.
We had faith in his competence to command our turboprop aircraft, its crew and passengers, and, more importantly, we had faith in his judgement in deciding when pressing on was inappropriate. I feel sure our faith was equalled by that of his later corporate clients (including a famous racing driver - by definition, someone who would recognise, but not tolerate, incompetence in a pilot if he saw it), as well as the international biz-av manufacturer who employed him full-time to demonstrate its new aircraft worldwide to corporate clients.
This is a terrible sad loss of a thoroughly competent, cheerful, ever smiley professional – my heart goes out to his partner and small children, who, although I had not seen him for a number of years, I know he truly adored.
I believe I also worked briefly with the other gentleman involved 20 years ago - also a man of great good cheer and warmth - and I would also like to express my condolences to the bereaved family in this case.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
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I noticed the BBC made reference to "puppy farms," approaches over the city (incorrect) etc then withdrew the comments later.
I hope the reporter got a slap.
D.O.
I hope the reporter got a slap.
D.O.
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My condolences to all those involved.
That's an nteresting observation, especially as the accident site seems to be on the downwind side of the hills on the ILS approach track. (Based on the chart posted on the previous page)
Whether this has anything to do with the accident will have to wait for the report; but it's certainly food for thought!
there would have been a lot of rotor.
Whether this has anything to do with the accident will have to wait for the report; but it's certainly food for thought!
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This report says it was a C172. 
D.O.
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Very sad. Condolences to all affected. RIP Silverknapper and JJ.
Whilst the weather was not suited for your average VFR spam can with a vanilla ppl, it was most certainly very doable to an experienced pilot in a much capable aircraft as charlie kilo was.
If my memory serves me correctly, this is not the first time that this particular
approach has encountered problems on that high ground.
Whilst the weather was not suited for your average VFR spam can with a vanilla ppl, it was most certainly very doable to an experienced pilot in a much capable aircraft as charlie kilo was.
If my memory serves me correctly, this is not the first time that this particular
approach has encountered problems on that high ground.
Join Date: Mar 1999
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Light aircraft crash victims named - BBC News
The pilots have been named
I want to echo Linton's sentiments about Andy's professionalism, I had the pleasure of sharing a cockpit with him many times over the years and he was an absolute first class operator.
I owe him a personal debt, as a raw rookie FO with less than a month in the Jetstream he saved my life, when I (the captain) was incapacitated in a severe food poisoning episode on the way to Benbecula in a dreadful windy rainy Scottish morning, probably not dissimilar to the one he was flying in on his final flight. He did a marvellous job that day, just like every other day of his flying career.
RIP Andy you were a great gentleman, a great laugh, a great pilot and a great guy.
The pilots have been named
I want to echo Linton's sentiments about Andy's professionalism, I had the pleasure of sharing a cockpit with him many times over the years and he was an absolute first class operator.
I owe him a personal debt, as a raw rookie FO with less than a month in the Jetstream he saved my life, when I (the captain) was incapacitated in a severe food poisoning episode on the way to Benbecula in a dreadful windy rainy Scottish morning, probably not dissimilar to the one he was flying in on his final flight. He did a marvellous job that day, just like every other day of his flying career.
RIP Andy you were a great gentleman, a great laugh, a great pilot and a great guy.
Join Date: May 2015
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Like LinCh, I do not subscribe to aviation gossip. Over 28 years as a Professional pilot, this is my first post on the Forum, and will probably be my last. My username is my real name. Nothing to hide.
Beautifully said LinCh!
I have lost two of my closest friends in this incident.
Andy (PIC) was a professional of the highest level. I flew with him in all sorts of aircraft, big and small. Bad weather and good. He was my best friend. I knew how he thought, and how he operated. The latter was to a very high standard indeed. I would be proud to be half the pilot that he was.
John (P2) was also also one of the special people in my life. I played a major part in teaching him to fly, and would like to say that he was a very competent Private Pilot.
Whilst I understand that some people post through lack of understanding/knowledge/experience, perhaps they could refrain until they have more facts at their disposal.
RIP, my friends.
'Over and Out' pprune
Beautifully said LinCh!
I have lost two of my closest friends in this incident.
Andy (PIC) was a professional of the highest level. I flew with him in all sorts of aircraft, big and small. Bad weather and good. He was my best friend. I knew how he thought, and how he operated. The latter was to a very high standard indeed. I would be proud to be half the pilot that he was.
John (P2) was also also one of the special people in my life. I played a major part in teaching him to fly, and would like to say that he was a very competent Private Pilot.
Whilst I understand that some people post through lack of understanding/knowledge/experience, perhaps they could refrain until they have more facts at their disposal.
RIP, my friends.
'Over and Out' pprune
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Don't make a judgement on other peoples abilities based on your experience levels. Bad form, wait for the AAIB report.
As an ex-professional aviator (no longer) I never have, never would and never will speculate on the cause of an accident before the report - unlike many others on here. Please do not tar me with the same brush. QED, because I've no desire to be disrespectful either.
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Whilst I understand that some people post through lack of understanding/knowledge/experience, perhaps they could refrain until they have more facts at their disposal.RIP, my friends.'Over and Out' PPRuNe
Some posters are only stating the fact that the weather was pretty horrific. It was, fact. It was also as, forecast, fact.
Obviously, as has been stated, it may, or not, be a factor. We all await the initial, and then, final report.
Join Date: May 2008
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Another tragedy associated with Dundee, such a shame. No disrespect to those above, but this is a rumour network, and speculation is a natural thing when so little information is available. The facts are that the weather was poor. Not impossible, but far from decent VMC.
I personally feel that speculation is a good thing, as it makes us all think outside the box as to what may or may not have contributed to this incident, which may just help one of us make a go/no go decision one day, or save our life in some other obscure manner unfathomable at this stage.
No one is disrespecting either pilot, simply discussing the weather that has been provided as the only fact at this stage.
I personally feel that speculation is a good thing, as it makes us all think outside the box as to what may or may not have contributed to this incident, which may just help one of us make a go/no go decision one day, or save our life in some other obscure manner unfathomable at this stage.
No one is disrespecting either pilot, simply discussing the weather that has been provided as the only fact at this stage.
So far as I can see, the published conditions were poor, but not so poor that a current CPL/IR in a Baron would decline.
I also understand that the crash site was 10 miles West of Dundee, where if I read the IAP correctly, the aircraft would be about 2200ft and the terrain is about at worst 1300ft.
Whatever happened, it was probably complex and will take somebody who has access to more information than us, to work it out. That will presumably be the AAIB.
G
I also understand that the crash site was 10 miles West of Dundee, where if I read the IAP correctly, the aircraft would be about 2200ft and the terrain is about at worst 1300ft.
Whatever happened, it was probably complex and will take somebody who has access to more information than us, to work it out. That will presumably be the AAIB.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 4th May 2015 at 21:34.
No one has posted the OPMET yet, so here it is.
TAF AMD EGPN 031034Z 0310/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN012
TEMPO 0310/0316 10022G32KT 4000 RADZ BKN008
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
TAF EGPN 030859Z 0309/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN018
TEMPO 0309/0316 10022G32KT 5000 RA BKN012
PROB30 TEMPO 0314/0318 BKN007
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
METAR EGPN 031320Z 08020G30KT 050V110 4000 +RA BKN007 OVC010 07/06 Q0994=
METAR EGPN 031250Z 09019KT 4000 +RA BKN006 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
METAR EGPN 031220Z 09020KT 4500 +RA BKN007 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
METAR EGPN 031150Z 09020G30KT 4500 RA BKN007 BKN014 07/06 Q0995=
METAR EGPN 031120Z 09022KT 5000 RA BKN009 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
METAR EGPN 031050Z 09021G31KT 4000 RA BKN008 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
METAR EGPN 031020Z 09021KT 060V130 5000 RA BKN009 BKN018 07/06 Q0997=
METAR EGPN 030950Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN010 BKN018 06/06 Q0998=
METAR EGPN 030920Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 07/06 Q0998=
METAR EGPN 030850Z 09023KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 06/05 Q0999=
TAF AMD EGPN 031034Z 0310/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN012
TEMPO 0310/0316 10022G32KT 4000 RADZ BKN008
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
TAF EGPN 030859Z 0309/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN018
TEMPO 0309/0316 10022G32KT 5000 RA BKN012
PROB30 TEMPO 0314/0318 BKN007
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
METAR EGPN 031320Z 08020G30KT 050V110 4000 +RA BKN007 OVC010 07/06 Q0994=
METAR EGPN 031250Z 09019KT 4000 +RA BKN006 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
METAR EGPN 031220Z 09020KT 4500 +RA BKN007 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
METAR EGPN 031150Z 09020G30KT 4500 RA BKN007 BKN014 07/06 Q0995=
METAR EGPN 031120Z 09022KT 5000 RA BKN009 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
METAR EGPN 031050Z 09021G31KT 4000 RA BKN008 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
METAR EGPN 031020Z 09021KT 060V130 5000 RA BKN009 BKN018 07/06 Q0997=
METAR EGPN 030950Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN010 BKN018 06/06 Q0998=
METAR EGPN 030920Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 07/06 Q0998=
METAR EGPN 030850Z 09023KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 06/05 Q0999=
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The weather was up, but has now disappeared, so whoever posted it must of changed their mind about contributing.
The low cloud shouldn't be too much of an issue with an ILS available, and as is often the way at Dundee, when the weather is bad you get an easterly wind, so it would have been a headwind for the only approach available.
I suspect the freezing level would have been below MSA, I'm sure it's one of these where there will be many contributing factors rather than one simple answer. No mention of a mayday call in any reports I've seen, but it's early days and reporting is very poor on these types of incidents, one report still talking about a twin engine cessna 172.
The low cloud shouldn't be too much of an issue with an ILS available, and as is often the way at Dundee, when the weather is bad you get an easterly wind, so it would have been a headwind for the only approach available.
I suspect the freezing level would have been below MSA, I'm sure it's one of these where there will be many contributing factors rather than one simple answer. No mention of a mayday call in any reports I've seen, but it's early days and reporting is very poor on these types of incidents, one report still talking about a twin engine cessna 172.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Dundee METAR:
SA 03/05/2015 12:50-> METAR EGPN 031250Z 09019KT 4000 +RA BKN006 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
SA 03/05/2015 12:20-> METAR EGPN 031220Z 09020KT 4500 +RA BKN007 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
SA 03/05/2015 11:50-> METAR EGPN 031150Z 09020G30KT 4500 RA BKN007 BKN014 07/06 Q0995=
SA 03/05/2015 11:20-> METAR EGPN 031120Z 09022KT 5000 RA BKN009 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
SA 03/05/2015 10:50-> METAR EGPN 031050Z 09021G31KT 4000 RA BKN008 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
SA 03/05/2015 10:20-> METAR EGPN 031020Z 09021KT 060V130 5000 RA BKN009 BKN018 07/06 Q0997=
SA 03/05/2015 09:50-> METAR EGPN 030950Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN010 BKN018 06/06 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 09:20-> METAR EGPN 030920Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 07/06 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 08:50-> METAR EGPN 030850Z 09023KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 06/05 Q0999=
SA 03/05/2015 08:20-> METAR EGPN 030820Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN016 06/05 Q0999=
Dundee TAF:
FC 03/05/2015 10:59-> TAF EGPN 031059Z 0312/0320 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN012
TEMPO 0312/0316 4000 RADZ BKN008
TEMPO 0312/0315 10022G32KT
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
FC 03/05/2015 10:34-> TAF AMD EGPN 031034Z 0310/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN012
TEMPO 0310/0316 10022G32KT 4000 RADZ BKN008
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
FC 03/05/2015 08:59-> TAF EGPN 030859Z 0309/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN018
TEMPO 0309/0316 10022G32KT 5000 RA BKN012
PROB30 TEMPO 0314/0318 BKN007
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
Inverness: Sunday morning
SA 03/05/2015 12:50-> METAR EGPE 031250Z 08013KT 9999 -RA FEW012 BKN022 06/03 Q0996=
SA 03/05/2015 12:20-> METAR EGPE 031220Z 09012KT 060V120 9999 -RA FEW012 BKN022 06/03 Q0997=
SA 03/05/2015 11:50-> METAR EGPE 031150Z 09015KT 9999 -RA FEW015 BKN026 06/03 Q0997=
SA 03/05/2015 11:20-> METAR EGPE 031120Z 09015KT 070V140 9999 -RA FEW015 BKN024 06/03 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 10:50-> METAR EGPE 031050Z 09016G27KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT025 BKN030 06/02 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 10:20-> METAR EGPE 031020Z 10017G29KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT025 BKN035 06/02 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 09:50-> METAR EGPE 030950Z 09012KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT023 BKN036 05/02 Q0999=
SA 03/05/2015 09:20-> METAR EGPE 030920Z 09013KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT023 BKN033 05/02 Q1000=
SA 03/05/2015 08:50-> METAR EGPE 030850Z 09013KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT020 BKN030 05/02 Q1000=
SA 03/05/2015 08:20-> METAR EGPE 030820Z 09014KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT020 BKN027
SA 03/05/2015 12:50-> METAR EGPN 031250Z 09019KT 4000 +RA BKN006 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
SA 03/05/2015 12:20-> METAR EGPN 031220Z 09020KT 4500 +RA BKN007 OVC014 07/06 Q0995=
SA 03/05/2015 11:50-> METAR EGPN 031150Z 09020G30KT 4500 RA BKN007 BKN014 07/06 Q0995=
SA 03/05/2015 11:20-> METAR EGPN 031120Z 09022KT 5000 RA BKN009 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
SA 03/05/2015 10:50-> METAR EGPN 031050Z 09021G31KT 4000 RA BKN008 BKN016 07/06 Q0996=
SA 03/05/2015 10:20-> METAR EGPN 031020Z 09021KT 060V130 5000 RA BKN009 BKN018 07/06 Q0997=
SA 03/05/2015 09:50-> METAR EGPN 030950Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN010 BKN018 06/06 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 09:20-> METAR EGPN 030920Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 07/06 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 08:50-> METAR EGPN 030850Z 09023KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN018 06/05 Q0999=
SA 03/05/2015 08:20-> METAR EGPN 030820Z 09021KT 5000 RA BKN013 BKN016 06/05 Q0999=
Dundee TAF:
FC 03/05/2015 10:59-> TAF EGPN 031059Z 0312/0320 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN012
TEMPO 0312/0316 4000 RADZ BKN008
TEMPO 0312/0315 10022G32KT
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
FC 03/05/2015 10:34-> TAF AMD EGPN 031034Z 0310/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN012
TEMPO 0310/0316 10022G32KT 4000 RADZ BKN008
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
FC 03/05/2015 08:59-> TAF EGPN 030859Z 0309/0318 09017KT 8000 -RA BKN018
TEMPO 0309/0316 10022G32KT 5000 RA BKN012
PROB30 TEMPO 0314/0318 BKN007
BECMG 0316/0318 VRB03KT 9999 NSW=
Inverness: Sunday morning
SA 03/05/2015 12:50-> METAR EGPE 031250Z 08013KT 9999 -RA FEW012 BKN022 06/03 Q0996=
SA 03/05/2015 12:20-> METAR EGPE 031220Z 09012KT 060V120 9999 -RA FEW012 BKN022 06/03 Q0997=
SA 03/05/2015 11:50-> METAR EGPE 031150Z 09015KT 9999 -RA FEW015 BKN026 06/03 Q0997=
SA 03/05/2015 11:20-> METAR EGPE 031120Z 09015KT 070V140 9999 -RA FEW015 BKN024 06/03 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 10:50-> METAR EGPE 031050Z 09016G27KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT025 BKN030 06/02 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 10:20-> METAR EGPE 031020Z 10017G29KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT025 BKN035 06/02 Q0998=
SA 03/05/2015 09:50-> METAR EGPE 030950Z 09012KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT023 BKN036 05/02 Q0999=
SA 03/05/2015 09:20-> METAR EGPE 030920Z 09013KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT023 BKN033 05/02 Q1000=
SA 03/05/2015 08:50-> METAR EGPE 030850Z 09013KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT020 BKN030 05/02 Q1000=
SA 03/05/2015 08:20-> METAR EGPE 030820Z 09014KT 9999 -RA FEW015 SCT020 BKN027