Side-slip without stalling
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Sorry but until that last post I thought you sounded like you knew what you were on about?
I said feel and ATTITUDE .... Seriously, if you really need to reference the ASI in a simple single engine aeroplane in such circumstances I don't fancy your chances.
At 500' you don't re-trim of faff about, you look outside the cockpit for where you are putting it down and do so.
SS
I said feel and ATTITUDE .... Seriously, if you really need to reference the ASI in a simple single engine aeroplane in such circumstances I don't fancy your chances.
At 500' you don't re-trim of faff about, you look outside the cockpit for where you are putting it down and do so.
SS
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Join Date: Jan 2001
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Vilters
just a couple of points to mull over
what do you do if there also is no airspeed indication?
remember stall is about AOA and indicated airspeed is just a guide! Short final approach speed is 1.3 X the stall speed to allow you a margin to transition from descent to landing it could be 1.4 1,5 whatever.
Landing is not ONLY about stalling onto the ground surface. It usually is but doesn't have to be.
Fly my Citation and you could cover up the IAS and fly totally on the AOA gauge and it would be a damned sight more accurate
It has a lot to do with feel and energy management
pace
just a couple of points to mull over
what do you do if there also is no airspeed indication?remember stall is about AOA and indicated airspeed is just a guide! Short final approach speed is 1.3 X the stall speed to allow you a margin to transition from descent to landing it could be 1.4 1,5 whatever.
Landing is not ONLY about stalling onto the ground surface. It usually is but doesn't have to be.
Fly my Citation and you could cover up the IAS and fly totally on the AOA gauge and it would be a damned sight more accurate
It has a lot to do with feel and energy management pace
Last edited by Pace; 22nd Apr 2015 at 23:13.
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It's all about AoA control. Speed is much less relevent. If you control AoA to give you momentarily zero G, speed will hardly matter at all for that moment, If your AoA has you pulling 2G, you'd better have extra speed. This should be entirely a feel and sense thing for a competent pilot. Reading instrument information should be extremely secondary.
Trimming a plane is a nice thing to do once extablished in a configuration. Trimming is near the least important thing you could attend to during a forced approach, unless you're gliding down from a few thousand feet.
"Best glide speed" and "best climb speed" can be traps. If you're in a vulnerable phase of flight, and you can, add 5 to 10 knots to each of these speeds, and expect the lesser performance, it'll keep you more safe. Inertia is your friend, when you must flare.
There was talk of retracting flaps for a glidepath change. No. The first setting or two of flap extension on most GA aircraft is a lift increase, so you can fly more slowly, more will be drag, but still some lift. You do not want to give up that lift, particularly if you are flying the slower flaps extended approach speed. Once down, either stay down, or apply power and overshoot - so for a forced approach = flap stay down.
'One of the several reasons I like slipping. Side or forward slip distinction is less vital than just precisely cross controlling, and getting it where it needs to be in the correct speed range. I like to slip, until the landing zone is assured, then exend the flaps as needed for a slightly fast approach.
If you reach the flare with too much inertia, use full flaps, and slip off as much as you can. You can touch down fully slipped if you need to on many GA types. It may be lumpy, but better than under/overshoot.
The use of a slip for glidepath control is a bit of a crutch, which some pilots will criticize, but it did mean that your approach have more opportunity to glide to a safe touch down than a plain glide approach.
Trimming a plane is a nice thing to do once extablished in a configuration. Trimming is near the least important thing you could attend to during a forced approach, unless you're gliding down from a few thousand feet.
"Best glide speed" and "best climb speed" can be traps. If you're in a vulnerable phase of flight, and you can, add 5 to 10 knots to each of these speeds, and expect the lesser performance, it'll keep you more safe. Inertia is your friend, when you must flare.
There was talk of retracting flaps for a glidepath change. No. The first setting or two of flap extension on most GA aircraft is a lift increase, so you can fly more slowly, more will be drag, but still some lift. You do not want to give up that lift, particularly if you are flying the slower flaps extended approach speed. Once down, either stay down, or apply power and overshoot - so for a forced approach = flap stay down.
'One of the several reasons I like slipping. Side or forward slip distinction is less vital than just precisely cross controlling, and getting it where it needs to be in the correct speed range. I like to slip, until the landing zone is assured, then exend the flaps as needed for a slightly fast approach.
If you reach the flare with too much inertia, use full flaps, and slip off as much as you can. You can touch down fully slipped if you need to on many GA types. It may be lumpy, but better than under/overshoot.
The use of a slip for glidepath control is a bit of a crutch, which some pilots will criticize, but it did mean that your approach have more opportunity to glide to a safe touch down than a plain glide approach.
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Originally Posted by Backpacker
I'm also a glider pilot so quite used to the use of air brakes. In a glide approach, I tend to use flaps the same way. The only complication compared to gliders is that the pitch required to compensate for flap deployment is more, compared to airbrake deployment.
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I once read a very interesting article by a well known US aerobatic pilot who was describing EFATO.
He said that during the climb out it is normally 2 thirds sky, 1 third land in the windscreen. In the event of EFATO the only thing that MUST be done immediately is to push until you have 2 thirds land, 1 third sky in the windscreen. Forget everything else at that point as once you have obtained that attitude you can assess what to do next.
Useful to remember that I reckon!
He said that during the climb out it is normally 2 thirds sky, 1 third land in the windscreen. In the event of EFATO the only thing that MUST be done immediately is to push until you have 2 thirds land, 1 third sky in the windscreen. Forget everything else at that point as once you have obtained that attitude you can assess what to do next.
Useful to remember that I reckon!
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We realy do not need another Taiwan ATR crash.
6 eyes in that cockpit, and they still let the airpseed get to low, with the resulting wingtip stall and cartwheel.
When in trouble, when in panic, SPEED control is what seperates life from death.
In a real emergency, thare's a LOT to do in very-very little time.
SPEED control IS the most important one.
@ Pace
How many "little" airplanes have an AOA indicator?
I agree with AOA, but that instrument is for the bigger boys.
Single engine failure? => push over IMEDIATELY, and the rest depends on what's in front of you.
Do I need best glide or best decend? => SPEED control.
SPEED control, flaps, all the rest is OPTIONAL, time permitting.
6 eyes in that cockpit, and they still let the airpseed get to low, with the resulting wingtip stall and cartwheel.
When in trouble, when in panic, SPEED control is what seperates life from death.
In a real emergency, thare's a LOT to do in very-very little time.
SPEED control IS the most important one.
@ Pace
How many "little" airplanes have an AOA indicator?
I agree with AOA, but that instrument is for the bigger boys.
Single engine failure? => push over IMEDIATELY, and the rest depends on what's in front of you.
Do I need best glide or best decend? => SPEED control.
SPEED control, flaps, all the rest is OPTIONAL, time permitting.
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Absolutely, speed. But assurance of speed by maintaining AoA by external reference, not by eyes in watching an ASI. Ideally, pick a point close not far, and slip then flaps into it, rather than trying to "make" a distant site with a glide depending on eyes in speed perfection.
Point where you want the crash, control the speed adequately, and flare to prevent the crash at the end...
Point where you want the crash, control the speed adequately, and flare to prevent the crash at the end...
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Vilters
I put AOA just to remind that all this talk of speed while very relevant even to us " Bigger Boys" is not really the vital picture its AOA and while I appreciate little aeroplanes don't usually have a gauge to reflect that knowing your aeroplane and feel does come into it so think decreasing or maintaining AOA through whatever change in configuration you make should be instinctive.
Relying on numbers while vital sometimes is not enough. its good practice to fly with the airspeed covered even to practice a forced landing that way. You can do it by feel and knowing your aeroplane
thats the only point I was trying to make very important is the phrase "energy management" and that seems little taught or thought of
How is Belgium today) I fly to your country most weeks )
Pace
I put AOA just to remind that all this talk of speed while very relevant even to us " Bigger Boys" is not really the vital picture its AOA and while I appreciate little aeroplanes don't usually have a gauge to reflect that knowing your aeroplane and feel does come into it so think decreasing or maintaining AOA through whatever change in configuration you make should be instinctive.
Relying on numbers while vital sometimes is not enough. its good practice to fly with the airspeed covered even to practice a forced landing that way. You can do it by feel and knowing your aeroplane
thats the only point I was trying to make very important is the phrase "energy management" and that seems little taught or thought of
How is Belgium today) I fly to your country most weeks )
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 23rd Apr 2015 at 12:01.
