Why is landing the bloody plane so hard?!
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Back on message.....
45 hours is the minimum number of hours for a PPL course. The average is apparently about 75 judging from conversations. I took 90. Does that make me worse? I don't know, I just took 2 years, including parts where I did a lot of circuit flying and feeling like I was going nowhere. Seem familiar? Weather breaks in winter were a significant issue.
Calm winds and long runways are NOT the answer to good landings. Actually, I HATE such days. I could get a fridge to float in ground effect on such days.
Light, low wing training aircraft do have a habit of floating along. Spam cans like c150s and c172s virtually land themselves. I did try flying an Arrow once. The practice engine failure taught me that the glide angle was similar to flying a grand piano.
Fly in a strong/ gusting breeze (remembering your x-wind limits) and you will want to have a bit of airspeed spare. The inertia of your aircraft is your saviour. If the gust eases, you will sink if you chase the airspeed. Keep a little in hand, and expect that lump of sink at the fence line. When in doubt, listen to the most experienced SEP instructor that you can find.
Stick at it. There's some great pointers here. Even the airlines insist on pilots flying a stabilised approach, because it's well known that you can't often make a good landing from a bad approach.
45 hours is the minimum number of hours for a PPL course. The average is apparently about 75 judging from conversations. I took 90. Does that make me worse? I don't know, I just took 2 years, including parts where I did a lot of circuit flying and feeling like I was going nowhere. Seem familiar? Weather breaks in winter were a significant issue.
Calm winds and long runways are NOT the answer to good landings. Actually, I HATE such days. I could get a fridge to float in ground effect on such days.
Light, low wing training aircraft do have a habit of floating along. Spam cans like c150s and c172s virtually land themselves. I did try flying an Arrow once. The practice engine failure taught me that the glide angle was similar to flying a grand piano.
Fly in a strong/ gusting breeze (remembering your x-wind limits) and you will want to have a bit of airspeed spare. The inertia of your aircraft is your saviour. If the gust eases, you will sink if you chase the airspeed. Keep a little in hand, and expect that lump of sink at the fence line. When in doubt, listen to the most experienced SEP instructor that you can find.
Stick at it. There's some great pointers here. Even the airlines insist on pilots flying a stabilised approach, because it's well known that you can't often make a good landing from a bad approach.
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Even the airlines insist on pilots flying a stabilised approach,
Do not confuse airline category airplanes with light training aircraft, heavy jets have completely different flight characteristics.
because it's well known that you can't often make a good landing from a bad approach.
That is not true, where did you get such an opinion?
I am not trying to put you down 300 hour but someone is giving you very flawed advice.
By stabilized approach I mean that from 500 feet AGL to the start of the flare the aircraft was in the final approach configuration with landing flap, around 1000 to 1300 RPM (aircraft dependent) and most importantly had the correct pitch attitude to hold the correct speed and was trimmed for that attitude. This gave a stable sight picture and adding or subtracting power allowed for small glide path corrections with the pitch attitude remaining constant. The pitch attitude would then be held until it was time to start the roundout at which time the throttle was closed and the nose raised to the landing attitude and held there until the mainwheels touched.
There are a lot of moving pieces when landing and experienced pilots juggle all the bits without thinking about what they are doing, or using as a previous poster pointed out "unconscious competence" . This ability only comes with experience. For new pilots you want the fewest things changing as possible hence the value of making the last part of the approach as close to the same as possible and doing the flare and touchdown the same way.
Finally I would like to point out that a "good" landing is not necessarily one with a smooth touchdown. In fact I witnessed that on a recent checkout. The pilot flew a too fast approach and then leveled the aircraft with no proper flare. It few on the runway with all three wheels touching at the same time. The actual touchdown was quite gentle but the landing was terrible.
A "good" landing is one where the touchdown was in the proper tail low attitude with the aircraft aligned with the runway and reasonable close to the chosen touchdown point. This may involve a bit of a thump but that doesn't change the "goodness" of the landing to any appreciable degree.
I would also note that many if not most flight schools specify a final approach speed that is too high. This needlessly prolongs the flare which invites ballooning, proposing in the flare, and nose first touchdown
If there is such a thing as a "magic" bullet to improve landings for new pilots then I would say it is this. "knock 5 kts off your final approach speed"
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dear big pistons, regarding your advice to knock five knots off the approach speed. i have to agree for the following.
I noticed that almost all light planes publish an approach speed for a plane at max landing weight . Certainly a solo student with fuel for pattern work is no where near that. I've had my students use the graphs or charts and calculate the exact approach speed to the improvement of their landings. Some might use the short field landing graphs or charts and the speed for the weight. You might find your landings getting better.
Also, to add, most planes are flown at the forward c of g due to no one in the back seat or no luggage. This may change things a bit too.
AS you say, the standard approach speed is a little fast, resulting in a longer float and actually more difficulty in finding the correct touchdown attitude.
I have to think that the higher speed only benefits those who worry about stalls in the pattern.
I noticed that almost all light planes publish an approach speed for a plane at max landing weight . Certainly a solo student with fuel for pattern work is no where near that. I've had my students use the graphs or charts and calculate the exact approach speed to the improvement of their landings. Some might use the short field landing graphs or charts and the speed for the weight. You might find your landings getting better.
Also, to add, most planes are flown at the forward c of g due to no one in the back seat or no luggage. This may change things a bit too.
AS you say, the standard approach speed is a little fast, resulting in a longer float and actually more difficulty in finding the correct touchdown attitude.
I have to think that the higher speed only benefits those who worry about stalls in the pattern.
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i have seen in the past a 14 stone instructor with a 16 stone student fill the tanks in a Cessna 150 and go fly circuits i.e. over the MTOW of the aircraft.
But yes there is a valid point there maybe especially schools could make variable VREF speed charts for different weights? Buit frankly unlike the airlines which can and do have a large difference on VREF for different situations/weight the spread is unlikely to be more than 5 KTS in a club aircraft
Im heavy!!! stick with the published VREF Im light knock 5 off
But really is that the way to get a student to make nice landings ? NO
I have seen too many low time pilots and higher time pilots especially transitioning onto a very different and unfamiliar type who transition onto the mental I am not really in control of this aircraft lets make a fingers crossed arrival mode and hope it all turns out OK. But they are not really in control
Business jets and we have the luxury of a voice countdown until you get 10 feet which is useful in very poor visibility and at night.
Some light aircraft have a RA which if set at 10 feet will give a ping.
But really its having situational awareness in all axis and that comes with experience and familiarity There is NO magic pill! Some naturally have more situational awareness or a visual brain and take too it quickly others don't and take longer.
I started into this thread talking about taking up skiing at a late stage in life! scared no ability and I probably fell 30 times the first day but got to the stage of skiing blacks. I am still not a good skier but if I ski at my own rate passable yet I watch world champions doing multiple loops on a snow board and landing on the board. their situational awareness , skill and confidence must be amazing.
Until a pilot can understand energy management (something which sadly is NOT taught ) not just from the engine! effect of controls and their interaction and be able to read winds gusts and the moving air they operate in then they will never be able to combine the lot into smooth fluent movements which adjust for every change instinctively.
The guy who sits there at VREF fully configured 4 miles out is being told a message that they are not really fully in control of that aircraft as they don't have the confidence to change what the aircraft is doing at will as there is a certain nervousness and lack of familiarity which makes them do this in the same way as I approached turns much too slowly skiing because there was nothing fluid natural or instinctive in my skiing. This means that all their landings will be on a wing and a prayer until things change
Pace
i have seen in the past a 14 stone instructor with a 16 stone student fill the tanks in a Cessna 150 and go fly circuits i.e. over the MTOW of the aircraft.
But yes there is a valid point there maybe especially schools could make variable VREF speed charts for different weights? Buit frankly unlike the airlines which can and do have a large difference on VREF for different situations/weight the spread is unlikely to be more than 5 KTS in a club aircraft
Im heavy!!! stick with the published VREF Im light knock 5 off
But really is that the way to get a student to make nice landings ? NOI have seen too many low time pilots and higher time pilots especially transitioning onto a very different and unfamiliar type who transition onto the mental I am not really in control of this aircraft lets make a fingers crossed arrival mode and hope it all turns out OK. But they are not really in control
Business jets and we have the luxury of a voice countdown until you get 10 feet which is useful in very poor visibility and at night.
Some light aircraft have a RA which if set at 10 feet will give a ping.
But really its having situational awareness in all axis and that comes with experience and familiarity There is NO magic pill! Some naturally have more situational awareness or a visual brain and take too it quickly others don't and take longer.
I started into this thread talking about taking up skiing at a late stage in life! scared no ability and I probably fell 30 times the first day but got to the stage of skiing blacks. I am still not a good skier but if I ski at my own rate passable yet I watch world champions doing multiple loops on a snow board and landing on the board. their situational awareness , skill and confidence must be amazing.
Until a pilot can understand energy management (something which sadly is NOT taught ) not just from the engine! effect of controls and their interaction and be able to read winds gusts and the moving air they operate in then they will never be able to combine the lot into smooth fluent movements which adjust for every change instinctively.
The guy who sits there at VREF fully configured 4 miles out is being told a message that they are not really fully in control of that aircraft as they don't have the confidence to change what the aircraft is doing at will as there is a certain nervousness and lack of familiarity which makes them do this in the same way as I approached turns much too slowly skiing because there was nothing fluid natural or instinctive in my skiing. This means that all their landings will be on a wing and a prayer until things change
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Mar 2015 at 10:09.
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Can someone wake the OP up please. We are starting to get some sense and realism back to this thread.
1. Stabilized and correct approach. By correct, height, speed, configuration. Rememeber the OP is new and in his training aircraft.
2. Carry out multiple circuit training, with slight differences to allow the OP to see the view and picture, which will enable him to have confidence as the situation changes, be it through aircraft, or conditions change.
3. As his experience grows, he can experiment with all manner of approaches, configs, and different settings. Until then, the experience and confidence level has to be there.
1. Stabilized and correct approach. By correct, height, speed, configuration. Rememeber the OP is new and in his training aircraft.
2. Carry out multiple circuit training, with slight differences to allow the OP to see the view and picture, which will enable him to have confidence as the situation changes, be it through aircraft, or conditions change.
3. As his experience grows, he can experiment with all manner of approaches, configs, and different settings. Until then, the experience and confidence level has to be there.
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Can someone wake the OP up please. We are starting to get some sense and realism back to this thread.
1. Stabilized and correct approach. By correct, height, speed, configuration. Rememeber the OP is new and in his training aircraft.
2. Carry out multiple circuit training, with slight differences to allow the OP to see the view and picture, which will enable him to have confidence as the situation changes, be it through aircraft, or conditions change.
3. As his experience grows, he can experiment with all manner of approaches, configs, and different settings. Until then, the experience and confidence level has to be there.
1. Stabilized and correct approach. By correct, height, speed, configuration. Rememeber the OP is new and in his training aircraft.
2. Carry out multiple circuit training, with slight differences to allow the OP to see the view and picture, which will enable him to have confidence as the situation changes, be it through aircraft, or conditions change.
3. As his experience grows, he can experiment with all manner of approaches, configs, and different settings. Until then, the experience and confidence level has to be there.
Re-post from a similar thread:
My initial progress was slow (I was learning on a taildragger), hampered by airsickness (esp during stalling) & inability to judge flare height.
Change of instructor: the new chap got me to line up but instead of opening the throttle the following exchange took place:
'Look ahead, note where the horizon intersects the cowling.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image. Now, look down a bit, note how high you are above the ground.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image.'
'Okay.'
'Right, now fly a standard circuit and don't let the aircraft touch down till the horizon's in the right place and the height is the same as now.'
It worked. I soloed a few circuits later. The aircraft was a taildragger but the same principle applies on a trike. Just get your instructor to demo the landing attitude and then memorise it.
My initial progress was slow (I was learning on a taildragger), hampered by airsickness (esp during stalling) & inability to judge flare height.
Change of instructor: the new chap got me to line up but instead of opening the throttle the following exchange took place:
'Look ahead, note where the horizon intersects the cowling.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image. Now, look down a bit, note how high you are above the ground.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image.'
'Okay.'
'Right, now fly a standard circuit and don't let the aircraft touch down till the horizon's in the right place and the height is the same as now.'
It worked. I soloed a few circuits later. The aircraft was a taildragger but the same principle applies on a trike. Just get your instructor to demo the landing attitude and then memorise it.
Last edited by Discorde; 17th Feb 2017 at 17:47.
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Look at the end of the runway, stable approach at 6 miles out, trim for this, that or the next!
No use. It is practically impossible to write down how to land an aircraft.
When you learned to drive a car it was a massive workload all at once, mirror, handbrake, clutch, gears. Then it all falls into place.
You are driving to a shop which is on the opposite side of the road, you swing across the road at 20mph, slow down, run parallel to the kerb, and stop with your wheels 2/3 inches away from the kerb. With your nice expensive alloy wheels 2/3inches from scratching them on the kerb even. And from the drivers seat you can't see the kerb.
This is the sort of unconscious accuracy that is required.
It is a pity we don't have instructors like Chuck in the UK since all the wartime taildraggering guys have gone & now everything is hyped up to some black art state.
No use. It is practically impossible to write down how to land an aircraft.
When you learned to drive a car it was a massive workload all at once, mirror, handbrake, clutch, gears. Then it all falls into place.
You are driving to a shop which is on the opposite side of the road, you swing across the road at 20mph, slow down, run parallel to the kerb, and stop with your wheels 2/3 inches away from the kerb. With your nice expensive alloy wheels 2/3inches from scratching them on the kerb even. And from the drivers seat you can't see the kerb.
This is the sort of unconscious accuracy that is required.
It is a pity we don't have instructors like Chuck in the UK since all the wartime taildraggering guys have gone & now everything is hyped up to some black art state.
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Wouldn't it also be true that if there were a thread about parallel parking and how to do it there would be a massive disagreement and just as much d**k waving. From the aim straight at 30mph and handbrake turn in to the way that the driving instructor tells you with mirrors, and handbrake In between changing gear
If I can remember back far enough to learning to drive there was a set way I was taught to do it. After test we have all honed our skills to be able to choose a different way of doing it depending on size space, type of car and how busy the traffic is.
So, to the OP, listen to your instructor and keep listening. He/she will get you to able to do an adequate landing most of the time. Then, as experience grows you will find different ways to do it in different conditions and different planes.
Landing isn't a dark art, just our target is perfection which we can't all do all of the time. And anything evenly slightly less than perfection is unfortunately obvious
Going back to the parking analogy, we don't all get that right all the time either (he says, looking at his alloy wheels)!
If I can remember back far enough to learning to drive there was a set way I was taught to do it. After test we have all honed our skills to be able to choose a different way of doing it depending on size space, type of car and how busy the traffic is.
So, to the OP, listen to your instructor and keep listening. He/she will get you to able to do an adequate landing most of the time. Then, as experience grows you will find different ways to do it in different conditions and different planes.
Landing isn't a dark art, just our target is perfection which we can't all do all of the time. And anything evenly slightly less than perfection is unfortunately obvious
Going back to the parking analogy, we don't all get that right all the time either (he says, looking at his alloy wheels)!
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This is the sort of unconscious accuracy that is required.
It is a pity we don't have instructors like Chuck in the UK since all the wartime taildraggering guys have gone & now everything is hyped up to some black art state.
It is a pity we don't have instructors like Chuck in the UK since all the wartime taildraggering guys have gone & now everything is hyped up to some black art state.
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Simple; relax and look towards the end of the runway during the round out / flare, and while you are looking towards the end of the runway during the flare / round out, relax.
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For a tricycle type, arrive configured, at the right speed (+-5 knots), aligned with the runway, over the threshold, at an altitude low enough, that a landing is possible on that runway (so low if it's short, a little higher if you have lots of room). A stabilized approach is nice for that, but not vital, as long as you get to that point in space and are stable there.
Keep the alignment with the centerline. When the aircraft is a few feet up, gently remove the last of any power you might have been carrying, correcting any pitch change with pitch control. Then, evenly apply nose up pitch control, at a rate not great enough to result in any climb, but enough to keep you thinking you're not descending. After you touch, keep the plane on the runway centerline, and keep steadily applying the nose up control input, until it reaches the control stop, then hold that until you park the plane.
Note that taildraggers may, and floatplanes and very certainly flying boats on the water, will have variations to this technique.
Keep the alignment with the centerline. When the aircraft is a few feet up, gently remove the last of any power you might have been carrying, correcting any pitch change with pitch control. Then, evenly apply nose up pitch control, at a rate not great enough to result in any climb, but enough to keep you thinking you're not descending. After you touch, keep the plane on the runway centerline, and keep steadily applying the nose up control input, until it reaches the control stop, then hold that until you park the plane.
Note that taildraggers may, and floatplanes and very certainly flying boats on the water, will have variations to this technique.
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Pace
Perhaps too many pilots are depending upon "CLUB" things? Can't the pilot take out the POH and look at the graphs or charts themselves? Vref cards would be nice, but the point, beyond the engineering of it, is for the pilot to control the plane and its speed.
Flying over MTOW! Shocking. Really I wouldn't allow it. And I hope that you report such activities to the right people.
Energy management is speed management (and altitude/power). Too much energy means it is too hard to lose the speed for proper touchdown.
Perhaps too many pilots are depending upon "CLUB" things? Can't the pilot take out the POH and look at the graphs or charts themselves? Vref cards would be nice, but the point, beyond the engineering of it, is for the pilot to control the plane and its speed.
Flying over MTOW! Shocking. Really I wouldn't allow it. And I hope that you report such activities to the right people.
Energy management is speed management (and altitude/power). Too much energy means it is too hard to lose the speed for proper touchdown.
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We have six pages of discussion on the subject of landing and so much different advice on how to accomplish a good landing that it is becoming impossible to know what to believe.
What happened to the old fashioned method of going to a good flight school and finding a good instructor, learn to fly in an environment that is designed for learning.
I have two last comments here.
If you want to be comfortable in making consistent good safe landings looking way ahead at the far end of the runway during the hold off portion of the landing will guarantee you will not be able to judge how high the wheels are above the runway, resulting in waiting for some sort of an arrival, rather than a landing.
Thinking a stabilized approach will result in a good landing only works if nothing destabilizes the approach just prior to the landing.....like turbulence and or quickly shifting wind direction and strength.
What happened to the old fashioned method of going to a good flight school and finding a good instructor, learn to fly in an environment that is designed for learning.
I have two last comments here.
If you want to be comfortable in making consistent good safe landings looking way ahead at the far end of the runway during the hold off portion of the landing will guarantee you will not be able to judge how high the wheels are above the runway, resulting in waiting for some sort of an arrival, rather than a landing.
Thinking a stabilized approach will result in a good landing only works if nothing destabilizes the approach just prior to the landing.....like turbulence and or quickly shifting wind direction and strength.
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Quote:
This is the sort of unconscious accuracy that is required.
It is a pity we don't have instructors like Chuck in the UK since all the wartime taildraggering guys have gone & now everything is hyped up to some black art state.
Sorry, cannot agree with any of that. You also need to make some new friends. Plenty about, with a massive skill set in landing everything with either a tail wheel, or a tricycle set.
This is the sort of unconscious accuracy that is required.
It is a pity we don't have instructors like Chuck in the UK since all the wartime taildraggering guys have gone & now everything is hyped up to some black art state.
Sorry, cannot agree with any of that. You also need to make some new friends. Plenty about, with a massive skill set in landing everything with either a tail wheel, or a tricycle set.
It is also my opinion that the syllabus has been gradually watered down, in the name of safety of course, to the point of, don't go there cos there be dragons, rather than let the student see the dragon and learn how to deal with it.
Just my own opinion, nobody has to agree.
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Umpteen pages of drivel in response to a straightforward question. PPrune at its best
Any advice on improving? Should I do what I threaten to do to my instructor every week and just jack it in and learn to play golf instead? All thoughts and advice welcome!
I have been lucky to safely land every aircraft I took off (and a few I did not!). A number of them were rather modified, or operated very differently, making me a test pilot. Others were deeply unserviceable, making me either a skilled, or lucky pilot. And some, on rather uncommon surfaces, making me a more experienced pilot.
Everyone needs a nudge of encouragement from someone who's further down life's road every now and again. If these pages don't constitute some really well informed encouragement, I don't know what does!
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Everyone needs a nudge of encouragement from someone who's further down life's road every now and again. If these pages don't constitute some really well informed encouragement, I don't know what does!
Everyone needs a nudge of encouragement from someone who's further down life's road every now and again. If these pages don't constitute some really well informed encouragement, I don't know what does!
