Why is landing the bloody plane so hard?!

[thing]

Can anyone actualy describe how they land though when they've been flying a while? I mean non instructors? I just do it, it seems to work, wouldn't have a clue how to describe what I do.

Bit like tieing a shoelace.

[horizon flyer]

Agree the higher the eye line the better. Makes a big difference in Cessna Cardinals.

Reducing work load on approach makes a big difference.
Being in trim, on centre line,correct approach speed and glide slope early gives more mental capacity for the flare. One other trick is get your instructor to fly down the runway in ground effect. Helps with learning the correct flare and hold off height with time to learn what it looks like.

Most instructors teach to reduce power and raise the nose a little when crossing the hedge, this is extra work load at a critical point that can upset you and I believe teaches bad practise for landing heavier aircraft in the future they generally develop high sink rates if this is done, not good.
I believe the best is leave it alone until the flare point, flare then close the throttle and it will slow sink on to the runway. Does make instructors jumpy but works well, but don't flare late.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

As to when to reduce power during the landing process I teach close the throttle / 's at 200 feet above the landing surface and land without the power crutch, unless something upsets the final few feet above the runway, then by all means use power if needed.

If you can not land using that method I will not sign you off to fly anything.

[megan]

I wouldn't fret, the skill will come, though you'll always have the occasion where you make a less than ideal one. The very worse landing I've ever experienced (and I include my own) was as a pax on a QANTAS 747 landing in ideal weather conditions. Captain having a bad day, or an inexperienced driver in the right? Who knows, but just shows the truth in the following,

A good landing is mostly luck; two in a row is all luck; three in a row is prevarication.

The three best things in life are a good landing, a good orgasm, and a good bowel movement. The night carrier landing is one of the few opportunities in life to experience all three at the same time.

[skyhighfallguy]

Mr. Ellsworth:

Lucky for me someone else signed me off to fly.

AS the wheels kiss the runway the power should be idle, not at 200'

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Well skyhighfallguy if you feel lucky someone else signed you off that is great.

However maybe you should read what I said again.

If you can not land using that method I will not sign you off to fly anything.

If you can not consistently land power off from 200 feet I will not sign you off because there is not a flying machine out there that can not be landed power off, the space shuttle is a good example.

AS the wheels kiss the runway the power should be idle, not at 200'

You are entitled to your opinion, however I do not share it.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yes, even the Harrier can be landed power off because it uses wings to fly.

However I very much doubt many here in the private forum of Pprune will be flying a Harrier.

So just to clarify my position I have spent many decades teaching the art of flying all over the world and have yet to fly any aircraft fixed or rotary wing that can not be landed power off from any altitude you choose.

As a point of interest one of my customers was an astronaut who flew the space shuttle and he had no problem with landing from 200 feet power off, he understood the concept quite well.

Here is a thought to ponder, if you are not comfortable with power off approaches and landings how safe would you be if you had an engine failure in a single engine aircraft..fixed or rotary wing?

[megan]

Part of a PPL licence test in the old, old days was the ability to do a spot landing from some thousands (forget how high) of feet sans power. Chucks (an extremely experienced aviator BTW - wish I'd flown some of his stuff) engine off from 200' ought be a piece of cake for anyone who calls him/herself an aviator.

[Stanwell]

skyhigh,
How do you think gliders manage?


p.s. Ever witnessed Bob Hoover's routines?
(Admittedly, he's not yer average pilot.)

[skyhighfallguy]

How do gliders manage? I don't know, haven't flown one.

How does the space shuttle manage? Don't know, haven't flown it.

But how do you land a two engine jet in bad weather, battling winds and keep the engines spooled up so as to have reverse handy?

Why do airliners, or anyone flying anything flying a CAT I ILS, with a DH of 200' NOT cut their throttles at 200'?

How do you demonstrate a power on approach if you cut the throttles at 200'?

Try this once. Get a shirt load of ice on your wings and cut the throttle(S) at 200' and make the runway.

How do you do a ''soft field'' landing if you cut the throttles, even though the technique is to land with power?

How awful for poor naval aviators for they won't get signed off by chuck as they come in with power and ADD power on touchdown in case of a bolter?

Can you land by cutting power at 200'? Sure, who can't? But should you?

I've seen people fly power idle approaches (called formaldehyde glides) from 20,000' to the runway no problem. OH, but if you are unspooled, try going around if a truck comes out on the runway. ASK the 737 pilot at Santa Ana (SNA) who couldn't go around cuz he was unspooled.

Some people seem to think that always practicing a power off landing will make you ready for an engine failure. Well, you should practice all the aspects of flying and you will be ready.

Can I land something from 200' power off? Sure. But perhaps some of us need the wisdom to know when to do it. Especially those pointing fingers on this thread.

Power off landings actually require little skill compared to precise flying using all the features of the modern plane. By taking power adjustments out of the equation, you are in essence taking something away from the airplane. It would be like a musician, a virtuoso playing the violin with only 3 strings and not 4.

Sure, know how to land from 200' without power. From 800' too. From 4000' in a spiral to the downwind.

But you are just playing "chopsticks" on the piano and not the "12th street rag" or "NOLA".

[mary meagher]

Interesting question. How many landings does the first officer in an Airbus get to do in a year?

Answer..not many.

How many landings does a gliding instructor on a winch site get to do in a year? probably about 3,000.

All you power chaps relying on your engines may find yourself one day wishing you knew how to land a glider. Reliable though your engine may be, do you actually know what to do if the donkey stops? Or simply looses power just after takeoff (EFATO). Do you have the remotest idea of your glide ratio? about 12 to one in most spam cans. BUT IT WILL GLIDE, AND YOU CAN MAKE A SAFE LANDING.

Friend of mine took up a well known and highly experienced aviation journalist in a new motor glider. At 3,000' on a nice day, he turned the engine off to do a bit of soaring. The journalist freaked out....

[taxistaxing]

Can anyone actualy describe how they land though when they've been flying a while? I mean non instructors?

As a PPL I have often struggled with judging the correct height to round out, either over-flaring or plonking it onto the deck. Something that really helped was my instructor's advice during my night rating: "Start the round out when you feel the runway edge lights start to rise up around your shoulders".

It sounds bizarre but it really works for me, even during daytime (using runway edges rather than lights), and has made my landings far more consistent ever since. It also works on a variety of runway widths.

Once Ive rounded out and flared I then try to keep the aircraft flying as long as I can before it settles into the deck. It also sounds counter-intuitive but works...

[Pace]

The most challenging approach and landing I made was a year ago last february into Doncaster at night with worse winds than forecast and at all the alternatives as well in a Biz Jet

The winds were 50 KTS Gusting up to 80 KTS, Shop fronts were being blown in.
Lorries were being blown over and at Doncaster 10 degrees off the runway

the landing itself was smooth and the jet stopped in a very short distance the worst was wind shear meaning I had to hold 170 KTS down the approach with speed indications dropping as low as 125KTS huge wing drops until we got closer to the runway where things smoothed out a little.

On the ground it took two of us to hold the controls as we taxied in and the marshaller literally got blown off his feet.

i will give you another account again of a business jet pilot I knew who landed a Citation into Edinburgh at an radar depicted speed of 200 KTS well over the tyre limiting speed. The pilot had control problems where he felt the minimum speed he could use was 200 KTS Mad Jock who posts here was there at the time.

There is a misconception that landing an aircraft is about the aircraft touching down at near or at its stall speed in a given configuration.
that is a misconception of landing.

Of course its the norm in light aircraft and especially in large passenger jets to land as close to its flying speed as possible to minimise the amount of runway they require to stop but the Jet that landed at Edinburgh at 200 KTS still stopped on the runway albeit at way way over 1.3 times its stall speed.

with what Chuck said about any aircraft can landing without power which is correct I have chucked these talking points in because of the misconception that landing is one way and that is 1.3 times the stalling speed VREF and holding off till near the stall. that is the usual way but not the only way and maybe not something to confuse a student over

Pace

[fireflybob]

Can anyone actualy describe how they land though when they've been flying a while? I mean non instructors?

It's called "unconscious competence".

[ChickenHouse]

Part of a PPL licence test in the old, old days was the ability to do a spot landing from some thousands (forget how high) of feet sans power. Chucks (an extremely experienced aviator BTW - wish I'd flown some of his stuff) engine off from 200' ought be a piece of cake for anyone who calls him/herself an aviator.

At all of my last renewals I had to fly this 2.000ft above field power off at downwind about threshold glide approach to hit threshold marking or at most 100m after. Don't they do this any longer?

[megan]

skyhighfallguy, This forum, in case you hadn't noticed, is private flying. Very few, if any are flying jets, and none are flying approaches to a carrier.

[Fantome]

Friend of mine took up a well known and highly experienced aviation journalist in a new motor glider. At 3,000' on a nice day, he turned the engine off to do a bit of soaring. The journalist freaked out....

Mary, you know, and I know, that your friend should first of all spoken enough to his passenger to put his mind at rest, avoiding the shock of the sudden. Think what misleading copy that journo may well have written.

Maybe Chuck could tell us the recommended way to put a Catalina down in heavy seas (if so obligated) so as minimise the potential for stoving in the hull. (PG Taylor in one of his books about operating Cats says he'd stall the aircraft onto the water if the sea state justified it.)

p.s.. gotta say best chuckle hereabouts is what Megan said . . .. .. she don't raise my ire one bit, mainly 'cause of that bit she put in 'bout the trifecta for carrier pilots. Good if it helps the critics to lighten up.

[ChickenHouse]

Very few, if any are flying jets, and none are flying approaches to a carrier.

Wouldn't this be a fabulous idea for a pprune fly-in, land on a carrier all together?

[thing]

Wouldn't this be a fabulous idea for a PPRuNe fly-in, land on a carrier all together?

Maybe not all together, one at a time would be fine.

Having thought about this (I like the 'unconscious competence' remark, more like unconscious incompetence in my case...) I think that if you are a stude bashing the cct then flying by the numbers until you get it right is fine, I'm not an instructor by the way so am willing to be shot down over this. But once you have your licence and start visiting short strips, longer GA fields and big international places then every landing needs a different approach; I don't mean approach as in approach path.

So your 500 mtr grass strip with the xwind needs a different set of skills to your 3000 mtr international field on a calm day. But isn't that the great bit about flying? Every flight is different. I fly powered from a couple of fields and gliders from another. One field you can fly tight oval 'Spitfire' ccts which are by far my favourite and the ones I find easiest, the other requires a square cct for noise issues and takes up half the county and then the glider field is a dog leg cct. Every one is different on every flight.

It would be boring if we could learn a set of numbers that made every landing at every field the same.

[9 lives]

I'm 99.2% with Chuck on this one. In ANY certified aircraft, a power off landing (and a decent one) is possible, if set up properly. The 0.8%, there are altitude and speed combinations for every aircraft, from which a power off landing will not be possible - this goes to the set up. If you are low and slow with power, the loss of that power could leave the aircraft in a situation where entry to a glide is not possible before reaching the ground. I'll come back to that.

Engine power for landing is a crutch. It's a very useful crutch if you need to drag in an approach to maintain a glideslope, or for a soft field landing, and it's a handy crutch for assuring touchdown where you want to, as the use of power stretches the flare - infinitely, if you want.

Engine power is also a deceptive pitfall, as people get used to using it, and then one day, it's not there/available in time/effective, and they don't know what to do. And... carrying power down the approach can trap you into a gear up landing, because the throttle actuated gear up warning switch will not be actuated, 'till it's too late, if you forgot the gear!

When I train amphibian pilots, they will not go solo, until they had demonstrated power off landings from mid base - consistently well, to a gentle touchdown. There is no excuse not to be able to fly these. A C182 amphibian, at 3350 pounds, and ten or twenty flap glides very nicely to a beautiful touchdown at 80 KIAS - and a twelve degree approach path! but it works! My eight hour on type charge, demonstrated three of these to me, and I sent him solo.

Practice power off landings from a more steep than normal approach, and a bit faster than normal, 'till you get the feel. Don't attempt short fields 'till you're quite comfortable, and as said, soft field landings don't work this way.

John Farley, the Harrier pilot, told me about power off landings he flew in Harriers. His book, a view to a hover, has excellent discussion on this

It is possible with power to get a plane into a place in the sky, where upon loss of the power, you will hit the ground, before you achieve a glide. This can, to a lesser degree, be achieved on a gliding approach too. The scariest flight testing I have ever done was a highly modified (and very draggy) Cessna Caravan, and required engine cuts at slow speed and 50 feet after takeoff. Think of it this way: a stabilized approach has no vertical acceleration, you're steadily moving toward earth. To arrest that descent, you're going to have to accelerate upward a bit. That will require the addition of energy. Either the crutch of the application of power, or giving up some speed. To give up the speed, you'll have to have it. And, you have to have it in excess of the "best glide" speed, 'cause that's not "best glide, with a nice reserve to flare", that's best glide to get you to shore. So, for the silly pilots who drag the aircraft up to the first 200 feet after takeoff well below Yy, they are in for a nasty shock if it quits.

As for nice landings, they come with practice of power off landings. I was very kindly invited along in an aircraft type I had never flown before, in another country, to an airport I had never before landed, last week. I only met my host the day before. He invited me to land from the right seat on our first flight, which I accepted. Though he suggested "speeds" for a nice landing, I did not have a ready view of the ASI, so I did not refer to it. The last 50 feet of my approach was at or near idle. The landing was entirely presentable, and received a complement from left seat. It just takes awareness to what the plane is telling you, and some practice - power off....