Circuit joining
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There were another 3 planes behind me in the circuit, so 5 planes in the sky. The 3 behind me were late downwind, downwind and climb out.
Also turning right in a LH circuit is something I was taught is a big no-no by my instructors.
Also turning right in a LH circuit is something I was taught is a big no-no by my instructors.
skyhighfallguy, all good stuff I am sure but those items are not in the syllabus for the licences in the UK. Operation at "minimum level" is in the syllabus which would include turns/orbits at that height.
carry on then, just be careful, sounds like your tool box is a little light over there.
Perhaps the main difference here is that this is considered to be an advanced, rather than a basic exercise, and not covered prior to solo.
Also turning right in a LH circuit is something I was taught is a big no-no by my instructors.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 21st Feb 2015 at 15:09. Reason: Spelling
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After a sightseeing tour along the beach at St. Petersburg, Florida, joined the pattern at Albert Whitted Airport, and was on final approach for 36 - in a rented Cessna 172. Tower asked me nicely could I do an orbit for slow traffic that was ahead of me on approach; he mentioned there were two experimental aircraft flying in formation.
Sure enough, there they were, flapping along at about 30 knots. So I did a leisurely 360, giving them plenty of time to get out of the way. Straightened up again on approach, and ..... the little bogies had disappeared! where did they go to? should have been on the ground by now, I looked at 36, no, nobody there.....and then I looked to my right, and there they were, only this time they were on final on 27....
"Hey," I said to the Tower, "You've changed the runway!"
Tower replied "We wondered when you would notice....."
Love it. They are laid back in Dixie, that's for sure. Y'all go careful, now!
Sure enough, there they were, flapping along at about 30 knots. So I did a leisurely 360, giving them plenty of time to get out of the way. Straightened up again on approach, and ..... the little bogies had disappeared! where did they go to? should have been on the ground by now, I looked at 36, no, nobody there.....and then I looked to my right, and there they were, only this time they were on final on 27....
"Hey," I said to the Tower, "You've changed the runway!"
Tower replied "We wondered when you would notice....."
Love it. They are laid back in Dixie, that's for sure. Y'all go careful, now!
MJ, thanks - that is what I did mean - been another long day!
MJ
Ps. Dan, It's good to see you are still with us after 8 pages. Most OPs would have lost the will to live by now!
Last edited by Mach Jump; 20th Feb 2015 at 20:24. Reason: Added Ps.
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chillindan
really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?
so, let's say you were on base leg and encountered another plane head on? he had made a mistake and was making right traffic to the same runway you were making (correctly) left hand traffic.
you were head on, you wouldn't turn right under any circumstance? two planes head on should both turn right in my part of the world. (assuming all else was equal)
IF you turned left and he kept turning right wouldn't you end up pretty close?
Wombat and others: what do they solve? It gives you a keen awareness of the wind. Compensating for the wind to achieve a ground track that is desired. As in the case of a rectangular pattern associated with a traffic pattern. Not understanding the wind might make you overbank to hurry a turn, instead of planning ahead. Overbanking/steep turning in the traffic pattern might put you closer to a stall.
IF you are not aware of wind and you simply make 90 degree heading changes to make a traffic pattern, the wind will drift you away making a pattern that doesn't really look rectangular.
Circling an object on the ground allows for observation, simply maintaining a bank angle will cause you to drift away and not allow for observation of something on the ground (like a wind sock).
Some pilots never really understand how the ground speed changes over the course of a simple rectangular pattern. I can't imagine a pilot really having a feel for the plane and maneuvering in a prescribed fashion without practicing ground reference maneuvers.
really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?
so, let's say you were on base leg and encountered another plane head on? he had made a mistake and was making right traffic to the same runway you were making (correctly) left hand traffic.
you were head on, you wouldn't turn right under any circumstance? two planes head on should both turn right in my part of the world. (assuming all else was equal)
IF you turned left and he kept turning right wouldn't you end up pretty close?
Wombat and others: what do they solve? It gives you a keen awareness of the wind. Compensating for the wind to achieve a ground track that is desired. As in the case of a rectangular pattern associated with a traffic pattern. Not understanding the wind might make you overbank to hurry a turn, instead of planning ahead. Overbanking/steep turning in the traffic pattern might put you closer to a stall.
IF you are not aware of wind and you simply make 90 degree heading changes to make a traffic pattern, the wind will drift you away making a pattern that doesn't really look rectangular.
Circling an object on the ground allows for observation, simply maintaining a bank angle will cause you to drift away and not allow for observation of something on the ground (like a wind sock).
Some pilots never really understand how the ground speed changes over the course of a simple rectangular pattern. I can't imagine a pilot really having a feel for the plane and maneuvering in a prescribed fashion without practicing ground reference maneuvers.
really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?
The rule says all turns must be to the left, but in an emergency avoiding a collision takes presedence.
Other reasons to turn right in a left circuit might include overtaking, or simply leaving the circuit.
Aircraft shouldn't overtake others in the circuit, and aircraft leaving the circuit should either climb straight ahead out of the circuit, or follow the circuit around until they are facing the direction they want to go.
MJ
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Aircraft shouldn't overtake others in the circuit, and aircraft leaving the circuit should either climb straight ahead out of the circuit, or follow the circuit around until they are facing the direction they want to go.
And next time I'm in an empty circuit with time to waste and fuel to burn I'll keep going round in circles.
Chillindan
To the best of my recollection , I may have been one of the 5 in the circuit , I heard an aircraft call and advise joining long final , and eventually observed two aircraft , one had turned base and became final , the long final aircraft approaching straight in , and eventually observed two aircraft in trail but apart , I was on the downwind leg and could see both at all times , it only needs a bit of speed control and distancing to allow adequate spacing in this situation – it certainly didn't appear to me to be anything more than usual weekend busy circuit traffic , if in doubt about spacing or positioning I'd opt for a go around myself or depart the circuit and re-join , which is what appeared to happen in this case.
I seem to see something different every time I fly, and then learn from it, if in doubt about something, I’ll always ask one of my former instructors for advice or opinion,
I’m no longer a student.
This is a good thread with plenty of info/opinion being given with regard the original question posted.
Chillindan continue to enjoy your flying J
To the best of my recollection , I may have been one of the 5 in the circuit , I heard an aircraft call and advise joining long final , and eventually observed two aircraft , one had turned base and became final , the long final aircraft approaching straight in , and eventually observed two aircraft in trail but apart , I was on the downwind leg and could see both at all times , it only needs a bit of speed control and distancing to allow adequate spacing in this situation – it certainly didn't appear to me to be anything more than usual weekend busy circuit traffic , if in doubt about spacing or positioning I'd opt for a go around myself or depart the circuit and re-join , which is what appeared to happen in this case.
I seem to see something different every time I fly, and then learn from it, if in doubt about something, I’ll always ask one of my former instructors for advice or opinion,
I’m no longer a student.
This is a good thread with plenty of info/opinion being given with regard the original question posted.
Chillindan continue to enjoy your flying J
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"really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?"
In that situation I would turn to the right.
What I'm learning as a new PPL is that I encounter new things all the time. Things I hadn't done during training, or things that surprise me. I departed the circuit at the end of downwind, which I'd not done before, I joined dead side at circuit height because the cloud base was low. I am always speaking to my previous instructors about things that are new because I realise that although newly qualified i am certainly still a student. There are so many things I haven't done because I've barely done anything except the syllabus yet. I've taken passengers now, that was new, and I'm hoping to fly into a controlled airport next week, something I only did once during my training and then only dual.
I'm loving the debate on here and didn't think my question would spark so many contrasting answers, which makes me glad i did.
In that situation I would turn to the right.
What I'm learning as a new PPL is that I encounter new things all the time. Things I hadn't done during training, or things that surprise me. I departed the circuit at the end of downwind, which I'd not done before, I joined dead side at circuit height because the cloud base was low. I am always speaking to my previous instructors about things that are new because I realise that although newly qualified i am certainly still a student. There are so many things I haven't done because I've barely done anything except the syllabus yet. I've taken passengers now, that was new, and I'm hoping to fly into a controlled airport next week, something I only did once during my training and then only dual.
I'm loving the debate on here and didn't think my question would spark so many contrasting answers, which makes me glad i did.
"really, you would never make a right turn in a left hand pattern? ever?"
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Not understanding the wind might make you overbank to hurry a turn, instead of planning ahead. Overbanking/steep turning in the traffic pattern might put you closer to a stall.
I was taught that stuff as a natural part of being taught to fly the circuit, particularly the base to final turn, and I can apply it elsewhere if/when I need to. It just wasn't a separate exercise.
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It used to be quite a common ATC instruction at EGHH if the controller needed time to think. I have often carried out 3 or 4 opposite direction orbits at the end of the downwind leg.
Orbits away from the runway are common in an ATC environment.
Not at an uncontrolled airfield though.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 21st Feb 2015 at 12:04.
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mach jump you can do a circle at an uncontrolled field, good practice would say to advise local traffic on the radio that you are circling on downwind or making S turns on final.
love the way you guys talk! Dead Side of the traffic pattern. We don't call it that.
On a busy day at a local ATC field, there can be a huge amount of traffic in the pattern and waiting to depart the pattern. ATC will often ask downwind traffic to extend downwind to allow for departures. They have even asked to fly through final on base leg and rejoin downwind on the opposite side.
AS to departing the pattern, departing the upwind leg (takeoff leg) on a 45degree turn is normal. Departing the pattern in an overhead 270 is normal. Departing on the downwind is normal. And just departing ON COURSE is normal to. All with advisory on radio/ctaf or via ATC instruction.
WE all keep our landing lights on in the pattern to help increase our visibility. Wondering of the OP did traffic on final have his landing light on?DID YOU?
We will even have aircraft flash their landing light (daytime too) to help sort out who is who.
Wombat, do you ever practice descending spirals around a point, keeping a constant distance from the point? Do you ever circle an airport at altitude well above pattern altitude to observe wind sock at an airport with no communications?
All are important tools of the trade. The spiral for emergency landings, or for use when only the airport is clear of clouds.
love the way you guys talk! Dead Side of the traffic pattern. We don't call it that.
On a busy day at a local ATC field, there can be a huge amount of traffic in the pattern and waiting to depart the pattern. ATC will often ask downwind traffic to extend downwind to allow for departures. They have even asked to fly through final on base leg and rejoin downwind on the opposite side.
AS to departing the pattern, departing the upwind leg (takeoff leg) on a 45degree turn is normal. Departing the pattern in an overhead 270 is normal. Departing on the downwind is normal. And just departing ON COURSE is normal to. All with advisory on radio/ctaf or via ATC instruction.
WE all keep our landing lights on in the pattern to help increase our visibility. Wondering of the OP did traffic on final have his landing light on?DID YOU?
We will even have aircraft flash their landing light (daytime too) to help sort out who is who.
Wombat, do you ever practice descending spirals around a point, keeping a constant distance from the point? Do you ever circle an airport at altitude well above pattern altitude to observe wind sock at an airport with no communications?
All are important tools of the trade. The spiral for emergency landings, or for use when only the airport is clear of clouds.
mach jump you can do a circle at an uncontrolled field,..
Dead Side of the traffic pattern. We don't call it that.
A small, but significant proportion of aircraft still fly 'non-radio' at uncontrolled airfields here. Is it the same there?
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 21st Feb 2015 at 14:15. Reason: Grammar
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MJ , if LEFT pattern was standard, we would refer to the other side as RIGHT PATTERN.
vice versa.
While left hand pattern is usual for many airports, it is not always the case. But we never call it the dead side.
vice versa.
While left hand pattern is usual for many airports, it is not always the case. But we never call it the dead side.