PPL SEP - 12 hours of flight time - need clarification

[DaveW]

It seems we disagree on what has been written down clearly by the regulator here. I consider it to be absolutely clear and unambiguous that "flight time" cannot include pax time.

In other news: Twenty-three.

That is the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

[Mach Jump]

I consider it to be absolutely clear and unambiguous that "flight time" cannot include pax time.

Well, I think the onus is on you then Dave, to show us where it is made clear.


MJ

Ps. Just playing Devil's Advocate here. I don't think it should be included either, but I can't see where it's excluded.

[DaveW]

Originally Posted by Mach Jump

Well, I think the onus is on you then Dave...

Dream on: Life's too short.

Why it doesn't matter: A reasonable person would not even be considering any other interpretation.

[Mach Jump]

A reasonable person would not even be considering any other interpretation.

If everyone was 'reasonable' we wouldn't need Regulations.

Personally, I don't think we need this one anyway. All this periodic experience nonsense should be done away with altogether, and just the 'flight with an Instructor' kept to qualify for Revalidation.

Dave's excellent table shows just how absurdly complex this area of Licence/Rating validity has become. I seriously doubt that more than half the Pilots in the UK even bother to keep track of their Licence/Rating validity any more, or that the CAA could successfully prosecute anyone for having an invalid Licence/Rating.


MJ

[ChickenHouse]

The old devil's advocate game ... I think we are far too close to reality to judge our regulators. Yes, it is their job to define things clear and unambiguously, but the problem is - the reality is not. There are authorities which are aware of it and know they are partly perpendicular to reality - these are the ones to deal nicely with, and there are authorities, which did forget this fact and are consequently almost brain dead and a waste of time to talk to.

I insist, you are able to log all you want in your log book - let it PAX in CAT time or whatever you want, you could even possess a pilot log book without being a pilot ! - but which part you are able to present for a revalidation of a license is a different animal. You can be nice to your FE and only write down things which can be counted for license renewal, or you can write a diary where the FE will kill you for the time he/she needs to dig through your mud of lines.

I can not account for all future possible needed categories in my flight book, so I tend to over document, which was quite nice when I had to add my X-Country experience according to FAA definition "flight hours in flights departing from airport A to full-stop land at airport B with a direct line distance of over 50 nautical miles" - do YOU track this in your flight records for the case FAA needs it for a validation?

For the sake of simplicity I also vote to throw all that complicated experience-based lying to the waste bin of history and go for a simple 1h FE flight every 24 month.

[PA28181]

I don't think I fully understood a word of that...............

[BillieBob]

What we used to call the ANO has been a CAA CAP for a long time. (CAP393)

No, what we used to call the ANO is still called the ANO (SI 2009 No.3015). An edited copy of the ANO is included as Section 1 of CAP393 but it is only the SI itself that has any legal standing.

The definition of flight time is included in FCL.010 but does not help resolve the issue of whether, for the purposes of revalidation, passenger time may be counted. If anyone really thinks that it is reasonable to count passenger time, I suggest they should go ahead and try to find an FE who will sign the revalidation certificate on that basis.

[Mach Jump]

No, what we used to call the ANO is still called the ANO (SI 2009 No.3015). An edited copy of the ANO is included as Section 1 of CAP393 but it is only the SI itself that has any legal standing.

Thanks, BB

If anyone really thinks that it is reasonable to count passenger time, I suggest they should go ahead and try to find an FE who will sign the revalidation certificate on that basis.

I don't think any of us think it's reasonable, BB.

The question is, as an FE, on what basis could you refuse?


MJ

[Pete O'Tewbe]

From Article 7 of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008:

2. Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot if he or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate to the operation to be performed.

From Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011:

Pilots involved in the operation of certain aircraft, as well as flight simulation training devices, persons and organisations involved in training, testing or checking of those pilots, have to comply with the relevant essential requirements set out in Annex III to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008. According to that Regulation pilots as well as persons and organisations involved in their training should be certified once they have been found to comply with essential requirements.

Note: Annex III referred to above covers essential requirements for pilot licencing referred to in Article 7

From Annex 1 to Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011:

FCL.700
(a) Except in the case of the LAPL, SPL and BPL, holders of a pilot licence shall not act in any capacity as pilots of an aircraft unless they have a valid and appropriate class or type rating, except when undergoing skill tests, or proficiency checks for renewal of class or type ratings, or receiving flight instruction.

It is my opinion that the quotations above amount to the requirement for, inter alia, a pilot to be properly licenced and rated in order to operate certain (i.e. most) "EASA" aircraft.

From Annex 1 to Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011:

FCL.740.A Revalidation of class and type ratings — aeroplanes

(a) [..]

(b) Revalidation of single-pilot single-engine class ratings.

(1) Single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings and TMG ratings. For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings or TMG class ratings the applicant shall:

(i) within the 3 months preceding the expiry date of the rating, pass a proficiency check in the relevant class in accordance with Appendix 9 to this Part with an examiner; or

(ii) within the 12 months preceding the expiry date of the rating, complete 12 hours of flight time in the relevant class, including:

— 6 hours as PIC,

— 12 take-offs and 12 landings, and

— a training flight of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI). Applicants shall be exempted from this flight if they have passed a class or type rating proficiency check or skill test in any other class or type of aeroplane.

(2) When applicants hold both a single-engine piston aeroplane-land class rating and a TMG rating, they may complete the requirements of (1) in either class, and achieve revalidation of both ratings.

(3) [..]

From Annex 1 to Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011:

FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.

From AMC and GM to Part-FCL:

AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time

(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following information:

(1) [..]

(2) [..]

(3) [..]

(4) details on pilot function, namely PIC, including solo, SPIC and PICUS time, co-pilot, dual, FI or FE;

Anyone see any mention of the recording of time spent as a passenger being acceptable for the purposes of licencing?

[Mach Jump]

Thanks, Peter. I appreciate the time, and effort that must have taken.

The fact remains though, that nothing there excludes the possibility that flight time as a passenger is included within the term 'flight time'.

AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time

(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following information:
(1) [..]

(2) [..]

(3) [..]

(4) details on pilot function, namely PIC, including solo, SPIC and PICUS time, co-pilot, dual, FI or FE;

Unless, on closer examination, we can take this as a de facto definition of the term 'flight time'?



MJ

[PA28181]

The fact remains though, that nothing there excludes the possibility that flight time as a passenger is included within the term 'flight time'.

A hard reality check maybe in order.

From the dictionary:

Reality is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition,

[Mach Jump]

(4) details on pilot function, namely PIC, including solo, SPIC and PICUS time, co-pilot, dual, FI or FE;

Ok. I'm convinced.

Although it's not as elegant as a specific definition, I accept that (4) above amounts to the same thing, in that it effectively limits 'flight time' to some form of crew function.

Thanks for everyone's input, particularly as it's such an obscure point.

I hope the OP appreciates everyone's efforts.

MJ

[dera]

I'm not sure about EASA aircraft, but AN-2 is a SEP that needs 2 pilots

[Mach Jump]

...but AN-2 is a SEP that needs 2 pilots

Really? I didn't know that. In that case, if it's minimum crew is 2 pilots, you could log P2.


MJ

[TheOddOne]

I seriously doubt that more than half the Pilots in the UK even bother to keep track of their Licence/Rating validity any more, or that the CAA could successfully prosecute anyone for having an invalid Licence/Rating.

MJ,

I'm not sure I totally agree with that, but you might be right about the latter.
Personally, I feel the need to satisfy a far more onerous body than our regulator, namely the insurance company. Believe me, they go through validity with a fine-tooth comb. For this reason, I keep a meticulous record of all flights I'm responsible for.

TOO

[Whopity]

but AN-2 is a SEP that needs 2 pilots

In which case it would qualify for a Type rating and would not be SEP!

[englishal]

What would be best is if they delegated the 2 yearly flight completely to a FI who then endorses the logbook saying that the requirements had been met, without the need for a FE.

Otherwise you might just as well do the flight with a FE in the first place and be done with it. There are more FIs or CRIs available than FEs, and anyone who is not part of a flying club or at an airfields with an FE has to go out and find one.

[nick14]

Flight time is defined for all aircraft categories:

For aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.

So that means brakes off to brakes on. As you cannot be p2 in an SEP, it leads to the fact that there is only two capacities, PUT and PIC.

All this musing is nonsense and people should not try to find sneaky ways to get round the law.

[Mach Jump]

In which case it would qualify for a Type rating and would not be SEP!

I'm sure you meant 'not SPA', Whopity.


MJ

[DaveW]

Here's the issued version of the draft table englishal posted earlier in the thread.



PDF version here.

Please don't post images larger than 800 x 800 - Mods

Well, you could have resized it - or PM'd me asking me to do it - rather than peremptorily deleting it. It's supposed to be useful for people.