PPL SEP - 12 hours of flight time - need clarification
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PPL SEP - 12 hours of flight time - need clarification
Does the 12 hours of fight time required to revalidate a PPL single engine rating include time flying dual with another pilot, even if I am not P1?
Revalidate a SEP Aeroplane Class Rating | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training
Revalidate a SEP Aeroplane Class Rating | Private Pilots | Personal Licences and Training
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Courtesy of someone on the Flyer forums.
And no, passenger hours don't count for anything, unless it is a multi pilot aeroplane (not many SEPs are MP I would have thought).
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I am that 'someone on the Flyer forums', and I would counsel great care in using that table just for the moment.
It is a work in progress, and the Flyer forum thread is to crowd-source critique of it so that it ends up being correct; that process hasn't finished yet.
Thanks, Al, for posting it here though. If anybody has constructive criticism ("Don't like the colours" doesn't count
), please comment on the Flyer thread - NOT here.
Many thanks.
Dave
It is a work in progress, and the Flyer forum thread is to crowd-source critique of it so that it ends up being correct; that process hasn't finished yet.
Thanks, Al, for posting it here though. If anybody has constructive criticism ("Don't like the colours" doesn't count
), please comment on the Flyer thread - NOT here.Many thanks.
Dave
...within the 12 months before the expiry date of the rating, complete 12 hours of flight time in the relevant class, including:
6 hours as PIC;
12 take-offs and 12 landings; and
a training flight of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI).
6 hours as PIC;
12 take-offs and 12 landings; and
a training flight of at least 1 hour with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI).
In theory, as it does not specify what form the 'flight time' that is not PIC must take, one could log passenger time, without claiming any crew function, as 'flight time'.
MJ
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@MJ: absolutely correct. When doing the regulations they missed to define "flight time" - which opened up the old local hero CAA game ... nobody knows but everybody has a opinion. If stretching to the limits, one could even log airline pax time ...
Back to the somehow reasonable things. You can of course log all times you want to, some use their flight book as diary story book and leave the "what counts for x" issue to later. I am writing down my RSF, if I was in control for me to remember and do exclude these hours in claiming flight time for license reasons.
And, to be picky - there is no P2 in a single pilot SEP ... you can log PIC or PUT for license revalidation, plus note PAX for all other flights. In the end it may depend even on your FI/CFI/FE what he/she is going to sign off. BUT, I would always suggest to do FE training flight if you are down or close to minimum hours anyways.
Back to the somehow reasonable things. You can of course log all times you want to, some use their flight book as diary story book and leave the "what counts for x" issue to later. I am writing down my RSF, if I was in control for me to remember and do exclude these hours in claiming flight time for license reasons.
And, to be picky - there is no P2 in a single pilot SEP ... you can log PIC or PUT for license revalidation, plus note PAX for all other flights. In the end it may depend even on your FI/CFI/FE what he/she is going to sign off. BUT, I would always suggest to do FE training flight if you are down or close to minimum hours anyways.
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There are several licensing definitions that are confusing (and getting that table above right, believe me, would convince anybody of that fact 
)
However, I find it difficult to believe the definition of flight time in this context is hardto understand. The issue is obviously to do with personal experience to retain currency, which must obviously be flight time undertaking a role that is both legal (as P2 in a SEP isn't) and credibly provides that experience.
How a reasonable person could ever convince themselves that acting as a piece of talking airfreight is loggable experience for licensing purposes is beyond me.
To suggest that the regulatory authorities should be pinning down the definition of "flight time" in this context to such an extent is simply farcical.
And if they tried they'd likely screw it up, anyway.
)However, I find it difficult to believe the definition of flight time in this context is hardto understand. The issue is obviously to do with personal experience to retain currency, which must obviously be flight time undertaking a role that is both legal (as P2 in a SEP isn't) and credibly provides that experience.
How a reasonable person could ever convince themselves that acting as a piece of talking airfreight is loggable experience for licensing purposes is beyond me.
To suggest that the regulatory authorities should be pinning down the definition of "flight time" in this context to such an extent is simply farcical.
And if they tried they'd likely screw it up, anyway.
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How a reasonable person could ever convince themselves that acting as a piece of talking airfreight is loggable experience for licensing purposes is beyond me.
To suggest that the regulatory authorities should be pinning down the definition of "flight time" in this context to such an extent is simply farcical.
And if they tried they'd likely screw it up, anyway.
To suggest that the regulatory authorities should be pinning down the definition of "flight time" in this context to such an extent is simply farcical.
And if they tried they'd likely screw it up, anyway.
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However, I find it difficult to believe the definition of flight time in this context is hardto understand. The issue is obviously to do with personal experience to retain currency, which must obviously be flight time undertaking a role that is both legal (as P2 in a SEP isn't) and credibly provides that experience.
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I refer to one of my previous comment "don't make it complicated"
you are tying yourself up in knots with this.
On that assumption re: A/P operation then many flying instructors have grossly over logged their claimed hours also. sitting in RHS twiddling their thumbs while stude gets on with it.
In principle I tend to agree as a first reaction, but get immediately into trouble when defining borders. If a right seat pilot takes control he/she gains more experience then a left seat PIC staring at the autopilot for hours. Consequently one must exclude hours under A/P from being logged as PIC time, or would A/P cruise not qualify, but on APP or in traffic circle yes?
On that assumption re: A/P operation then many flying instructors have grossly over logged their claimed hours also. sitting in RHS twiddling their thumbs while stude gets on with it.
To suggest that the regulatory authorities should be pinning down the definition of "flight time" in this context to such an extent is simply farcical.
We all have our own ideas when it comes to what's sensible, but Regulatory Authorities must make the rules clear and unambiguous. THAT'S THEIR JOB.
And if they tried they'd likely screw it up, anyway.
MJ
Ps. Airline passenger time wouldn't count in this case, as 'flight time in the relevant class' is specified.
Last edited by Mach Jump; 16th Feb 2015 at 12:36. Reason: Spelling
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Ps. Airline passenger time wouldn't count in this case, as 'flight time in the relevant class' is specified.
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In this instance the rules ARE absolutely clear and unambiguous already. There are things you can log for experience, and things (P2 in SEP, Pax...) that you can't.
People who cannot interpret these things (actually they can; they're just trying to get something for nothing IMO) should not be pandered to by the regulator by defining things like "flight time" any further than they already have.
It's adding on words to specifically deal with these misinterpretations that will cause the problem by causing even more (inadvertent) obfuscation and potential for deliberate (or otherwise) misunderstanding.
On reflection, I retract and apologise for my final snarky comment of earlier; I'd been spending the last day or so digging down into the confusion that really does exist in EASA and National licensing and had generalised from that.
In other words, MJ - you are quite correct and I agree with you.
People who cannot interpret these things (actually they can; they're just trying to get something for nothing IMO) should not be pandered to by the regulator by defining things like "flight time" any further than they already have.
It's adding on words to specifically deal with these misinterpretations that will cause the problem by causing even more (inadvertent) obfuscation and potential for deliberate (or otherwise) misunderstanding.
On reflection, I retract and apologise for my final snarky comment of earlier; I'd been spending the last day or so digging down into the confusion that really does exist in EASA and National licensing and had generalised from that.
In other words, MJ - you are quite correct and I agree with you.
But your not saying pax time in the relevant class counts are you?
If someone chose to count it, I can't see how it could be excluded, given the use of the term 'flight time' without any further definition.
MJ
and things (P2 in SEP, Pax...) that you can't.
You can, however, put 'passenger time' in your logbook, so long as you don't claim it under any of the 'Crew' titles.
I think that we do agree on the original intention of the requirement here Dave, but if Regulatory Authorities don't write things down clearly, they should expect that some people will push the text as far as it will go.
Is all this "flight time" talk from a CAA "CAP" or from the only relevant document the ANO?
MJ
Ps. Dave: Fantastic job with the Table above!
Last edited by Mach Jump; 16th Feb 2015 at 13:20.
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I think you will find that it is "contained" in CAP 393 but the opening page say's it all.
I believe no CAA "CAP" has any legal standing at all?
(Standby for major thread drift alert...........)
Air Navigation: The Order and Regulations
Published for the use of those concerned with air navigation,
but not to be treated as authoritative (see Foreword)
CAP
393
Published for the use of those concerned with air navigation,
but not to be treated as authoritative (see Foreword)
CAP
393
(Standby for major thread drift alert...........)