Flying on edge of Stanstead Zone.. Flight Plan/Nav

[India Four Two]

If they say "it's a bit busy in here, we'd rather you kept clear" I don't mind going a mile or two to one side or the other.

Thanks. I agree with you - I would co-operate with a request put like that. I was just wondering if there was a tendency to act as "ATC", which I have experienced on occasion.

PS To avoid confusion, I am not referring to Earls Colne AG.

[TractorBoy]

I do this trip quite a lot from North Weald if I have nothing better planned - route up to Haverhill then come back down the M11 from Audley End (keeps me in practice dealing with Class D)

I would recommend going M25 J28 - Braintree - Gosfield Disused Airfield - Haverhill

Braintree and Haverhill stand out a mile, Gosfield is pretty obvious, but have a look on Google Maps to clarify, as are the 2 gliding sites.

Squawk 0013, Mode C or S and listen to Essex Radar, stay around 1300-1400ft, and admire the view. No need to actually talk to anyone until Cambridge.

[abgd]

Scoobster, for me, old-school navigation is part of the challenge but I do have an Airspace Aware that I check on from time to time, and which yells at me if I get close to infringing anything. You could always make sure that it's out of your eyeline, as I admit it can be difficult to avoid cheating.

[englishal]

Englishal - I didn't understand the above?

On the plan it looked like you were trying to avoid the fillet of LTMA which is 2500+ and remaining in the TMA that is 3500+ by dog legging around the 2500+ bit. I'd just plan to route directly to Earls Colne under the 2500+ fillet is what I was trying to say. As you'll be landing at Earls Colne, then presumably you will be descending down at some stage so you might as well route direct....That is what I would do anyway if coming from the Chelmsford direction.

[FullWings]

I grew up on basic visual navigation (and became moderately good at it) but I would not plan a route as depicted if visual means were all I had. It’s too close to CAS and any any type of error or distraction could have you in it. If there were some sort of obvious line feature to keep to one side of it would be easier but that doesn’t appear to be the case.

I agree with other posters about GPS. With the exceedingly complex and busy airspace that has come to exist in the SE of England, it seems a sensible precaution to have some sort of accurate guidance or at least something that will warn you of an impending infringement if you’re navigating the hard way. Those people doing circuits at small airfields, gliders launching and soaring, parachute planes and their cargo, etc. will also be grateful to you, plus you'll reduce the chances of getting star billing in an airprox report.

There are quite a few good planning/navigation packages available, like SkyDemon, and they run on smartphones and upward. Compared to the hourly operating costs of a light aircraft, they are dirt cheap, unlike the fines the CAA can dish out if they think you’ve been negligent...

[OhNoCB]

I used to fly a VFR route similar to this (but different location) that also came very close to a CTR. I normally called the relevant unit and told them that I was routing from X to Y and might just clip their CTR, and requested a transit on the route in case. They were normally happy enough and approved the transit asking me to report if I needed to change the routing.

[Baikonour]

After asking for transit, I flew a straight leg at 3000 ft from Earls Colne to Duxford this morning as part of a lap from Elstree via Stapleford and Panshanger.
When I first spoke to Stansted I was overhead Stapleford and, after passing my message, also said "and I will be asking for a transit direct Earls Colne to Duxford in about 12 minutes". They said "No problem, just call overhead Earls Colne" and indeed it was no problem.

I think we should all be asking for transit clearances by default on any trip we do. By all means, have a good backup plan if asked to hold or refused, but if we never ask, we will never get and, more importantly, we will not show up on any usage statistics and we can easily be forgotten about when it comes to future airspace discussions.

B.

[Scoobster]

I haven't done VFR Zone Transit yet.. so might try that next time at Stansted en route to Cambridge. Will be interesting to see how on the ball you have to be and what to think about etc.

Will listen to the ATIS before hand.

unlike the fines the CAA can dish out if they think you’ve been negligent

For educational purposes, what can you expect to happen if you inadvertently infringe CAS? Didn't realise there were fines etc..

Must be a mountain of Paperwork...

Scoobster

[Gertrude the Wombat]

For educational purposes, what can you expect to happen if you inadvertently infringe CAS?

One possible outcome is a polite request such as "I really do need you to descend or turn right", with no follow-up, provided you obey and say "sorry".

As long as it's not the Reds' airspace you're in.

[fireflybob]

Squawk 0013, Mode C or S and listen to Essex Radar, stay around 1300-1400ft, and admire the view. No need to actually talk to anyone until Cambridge.

Tractorboy, thanks for the tips. It's a while since I checked the TMZ (not been down that way for quite a while) but was under the impression that if you did not have Mode S you have to talk to Stansted/Essex when in the TMZ below 1,500 ft (this assumes you have Mode C)?

[abgd]

Plus you'll reduce the chances of getting star billing in an airprox report.

The last time I flew the gap I had to take avoiding action for an autogyro and was surprised at the amount of other traffic. It was then topped (an irrelevance) by meeting someone going up the downwind leg at Duxford.

I don't normally worry about en-route collisions, but I would count this as a good reason to try for a transit next time.

[FullWings]

For educational purposes, what can you expect to happen if you inadvertently infringe CAS? Didn't realise there were fines etc...

Like Gertrude has said, contacting the relevant authority ASAP with a meek apology generally does the trick, especially if no aircraft under their control had to be re-routed to avoid an unknown contact.

If they have to chase you up and/or submit a formal report, then it comes under the aegis of the CAA, who may take a different view if they believe your planning, execution or general airmanship was at serious fault.

Have a look a some of these (caa.co.uk). The heavy fines are reserved for things like dodgy travel agents and shippers mislabelling dangerous goods but there are quite a few GA pilots getting their wrists slapped. Of course, they only show the successful prosecutions, so who knows what the conviction rate actually is.

This is a typical (and rather relevant to this discussion) example:

On 20 January 2011, an unknown aircraft was observed on radar within Stansted Transponder Mandatory Zone – 2. A passenger aircraft inbound to Stansted had to be vectored clear. The unknown aircraft was identified as G- CGJN. On 2 August 2011 at Harlow Magistrates Court, Mark Jefferies pleaded guilty to being the commander of G-CGJN which flew restricted airspace in contravention of Regulation 3(b) of the Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (London Stansted Airport)(No. 2) Regulations 2009. He was fined £1,000 and ordered to pay costs of £150.

That would have paid for a fully tricked out iPad Air 2, backup GPS and a 5-year subscription to SkyDemon plus a meal and a night out at the movies with money to spare...

[ChickenHouse]

Wasn't there a very recent thread on the current situation with FAA on their automatic filing of airspace violations based on radar detection? Where they made clear that the radar detection could be well off the GPS position and they emphasized at the old advice from real VFR-without-GPS-times to stay clear by 2 miles form airspace borders?

Personally, I did scratch close to airspace borders right after PPL, relying on iPad and GNS - BUT after a while I realized that this is neither polite to relevant ATC and/or other pilots. At about 300h I had one nearby occurrence while being close to a CTR and that was quite critical due to the nearby airspace - which I could have vastly ease by simply stay out a little bit more. So, I now try to keep 2 nautical away from these airspaces where possible, to relax controllers, me and the others around.

We do have a mix of WAAS/EGNOS-GPS, non-WAAS-GPS, iPad-GPS and visual flyers out there and we all are thought to take care of each other.

[flybymike]

I see no point in staying religiously 2 miles away from airspace boundaries. The boundary is where it is. If they want another two miles clearance then move the boundary out a bit, and then we can all stay 2 miles away from the new boundary, ad infinitum....

[abgd]

I think you've just hit on the Farnborough plan for World Domination.

[flybymike]

You could be right!

[FullWings]

I think it depends very much on the method of navigation. If you are using a GPS-driven moving display with airspace coordinates taken from the AIP/NOTAMs, then that would allow you to get close to the line and be sure of staying the right side of it. Having a recorded trace is a good thing, too.

If you’re relying on the trusty 1/2mil, chinagraph and MK I eyeball, then I would leave a lot more latitude. For starters, how accurate is the map? Is it actually what will be referred to, should you be accused of infringement? The example shown at the beginning of this thread could easily fall under “self incrimination”...

[ChickenHouse]

I think it depends very much on the method of navigation. If you are using a GPS-driven moving display with airspace coordinates taken from the AIP/NOTAMs, then that would allow you to get close to the line and be sure of staying the right side of it. Having a recorded trace is a good thing, too.

You are absolutely correct, but as we had in this other thread about enforcement and safety one has to keep an eye on the technology used there too. If radar detects us inside CTR and we believe to be out by GPS I can imagine the upcoming law suits to be very complicated. So, I prefer to stay clear out.

[TractorBoy]

Tractorboy, thanks for the tips. It's a while since I checked the TMZ (not been down that way for quite a while) but was under the impression that if you did not have Mode S you have to talk to Stansted/Essex when in the TMZ below 1,500 ft (this assumes you have Mode C)?/

You are quite right - sorry. All our aircraft have Mode S so I never bother.

In that case, just talk to them. They're not ogres, and there have been times that I actually asked for a radio check as I hadn't heard anything on frequency for 10-15 mins after tuning in. Then there other times when they're really busy.

I have only ever been refused a transit once, and it was VERY busy that day - and quite often have to hold just shy of the airfield boundary. Getting to scoot through the ILS between 2 incoming Ryanairs, their TCAS systems blaring, is great fun.

[AndoniP]

I haven't done VFR Zone Transit yet..

Scoobster

Try the VFR corridor going north to south over Luton, it's quite cool. You do have to be on the ball so have your kneeboard and pen ready to note down the instructions.

It's quite a thing when you're passing between bizjets or LoCos