Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

GA ADS-B Trial in Southern England

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

GA ADS-B Trial in Southern England

Old 6th Jan 2015, 14:35
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
GA ADS-B Trial in Southern England

Full info can be found at;

FLYER Forums ? View topic - General Aviation ADS-B Trial in Southern England

It has taken many years to win the necessary approvals to make this happen.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2015, 15:11
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: nottingham
Age: 38
Posts: 65
Sorry Rod - what is the key benefits for this?

Is it simply to make it easier & safer for radar/Ground assitance or a better nav aid for pilots etc..?

regards

Tris
PPLvirgin is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2015, 16:01
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Nympsfield
Posts: 9
Aircrafts equipped with ADS-B receivers can have a traffic display showing aircraft with ADS-B transponders like TAS/TCAS sees aircrafts with transponders or FLARM sees other FLARM

--
Xtophe
xtophe80 is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2015, 08:25
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,155
Advance in Saftey crushed by EASA

Once again the authorities in the UK demonstrate a pro-active attitude to flight safety with these trials. It is especially pleasing that the CAA is not charging modification fees for annex 2 aircraft involved in these trials and only requiring a minor modification.

Unfortunately this totally contrasts with the attitude of the very misnamed European Air Saftey Agency that doing its best to strangle any ADS-B implimemtation, I am installing a Garmin ADS-B capable ES transponder in my Robin the GPS sorce being an IFR approved GTN650.

Both of these units are approved by EASA for ADS-B in a large number of American aircraft, however EASA require an STC to enable the ADS-B to be switched on if installed in a Robin ! The total bill for this STC is IRO 15K !!!!!

Needless to say that with the bill for the STC exceeding the bill for the equipment by a considerable sum the ADS-B will not be enabled.

Having paid for the equipment to make flying safer for myself and those around me in the air ( and those on the ground below me) I find it gauling that the so called guardians of European air safety make it prohibitively expensive to switch the equipment on for reasons that have no technical justification or merit.

I can only conclude that EASA is more about increasing the income of its management than advancing the safety of European air transport.
A and C is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2015, 16:20
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,085
I can only conclude that EASA is more about increasing the income of its management than advancing the safety of European air transport
I heard that EASA have been aware of this conflict of interest for some time, and that, after a great deal of consideration, they have come up with what their various committees agree is the ideal solution:

It is proposed that he word 'Safety' be dropped from their title.


MJ

Last edited by Mach Jump; 7th Jan 2015 at 16:33.
Mach Jump is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2015, 08:11
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
PPLvirgin

In the short term it will reduce the likelihood of you having a mid air. In the longer term there may be advantages regarding CAS.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2015, 18:52
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Cooper City, Florida
Posts: 77
I left the UK many years ago and now live in Florida. At this time I have only ADS-B in on my tablet which give me weather information en route, and as a bonus traffic information when nearby aircraft are interrogated by someone near me who has ADS-B out. Now I fly a low wing aircraft with excellent visibility, but I seldom see the reported traffic even when quite close. In one instance it paralleled my track and was a mile or so off my wingtip, clear day. And I have had a panic or two when I suddenly had a wingman who was not there, ghosting from my mode C returns when flying in rough air! So see and be seen. ADS-B is no more than a heads up, and that is where we should be looking!
creweite is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2015, 10:22
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
creweite

That is interesting and completely contrary to formal tests done in the UK!

I ran a series of tests for the LAA on various collision avoidance / traffic detection systems relevant to Light GA. As part of this I was given permission to emit ADS-B and it was received by a system called PowerFlarm. The tests showed 100% accuracy up to 20 miles - the limit of the test - (as best we could measure). It was so good that if I "broke right" out of visual range, the other aircraft could tell me what I was doing close it instantaneously. From a traffic detection POV it won hands down, with FLARM beating it for short range avoiding action on the collision avoidance side.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2015, 11:39
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,155
Rod

The plans for my aircraft include a german ADS-B receiver and the power Flarm system all presened on the G500 screen, at about 1200 Quid it is a bargan.

The big hole in the system is made by the idiotic EASA attitude that demands the 15K certification of an system already certified for other light aircraft.

So when I get the whole thing done the aircraft will have a full FLARM system to keep me and the very hard to see gliders apart, I will see ADS-B equiped aircraft but thanks to EASA these aircraft wont be able to see me.

Perhaps I should write to the director of EASA and ask him how EASA sees this STC policy in terms of their safety mandate.
A and C is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2015, 13:56
  #10 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
A and C

I would be very interested in a chat about your fit. I tried to send you a PM but it did not go?

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2015, 14:45
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,155
Rod

Following a disagreement with the PPRuNe managment they shut down my PM's but if you contact tmmorris i am sure he will put you in contact.
A and C is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2015, 19:23
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Cooper City, Florida
Posts: 77
Rod1
I am glad to hear that LAA is taking an active part in this new technology, we have come a long way since the early days of the PFA!


I am not familiar with PowerFlarm, but from your post it appears able to detect ADS-B. but can PowerFlarm be detected by ADS-B? If not, then it would appear to create a conflict, you can see me on your screen, but I can't see you on mine.


PowerFlarm appears to have a lot going for it, not the least of which is a moderate cost compared to the installation of ADS-B out mandated by the FAA for 2020 for folks like me that operate in Class C airspace.


Perhaps I should elaborate a little on my experience with ADS-B in. The software on my tablet gives me target location, height, direction of flight and speed, even aircraft registration if that is the a target with ADS-B out. The problem of course is that an aircraft half a mile away presents a very small angle of view and may be hard to see. Add to that some of the odd things that I have experienced, which could not be explained by ghosting. Flying on a northerly heading, a target was shown several miles ahead of me on my track line and heading east, three hundred feet below me. No problem, it will be gone by the time I get there. But it did not move, stayed on my track line as I closed on it and flew over it. The software turned the target red as a warning, but there was nothing there! So a software glitch somewhere I imagine.


As an engineer I am enthused about new electronic developments, spent almost as much as my aircraft cost to install a Garmin GTN650 and can see another investment of that size for ADS-B out in the not too distant future!
creweite is offline  
Old 9th Jan 2015, 20:33
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: EBZH
Posts: 2,441
@creweite: at the risk of posting some nonsense, this is how I understand things - I shall be glad to stand corrected.

FLARM is a technology developed in Central Europe for the specific purpose of collision avoidance among gliders (imagine them ridge soaring). It uses general purpose hardware, such as gps-receivers and 433/688 MHz transmitters, and seems to do a very good job for the given purpose, while remaining affordable AND modest on the power requirement - important in gliders!
FLARM seems to have especially good algorythms (sp?) for predicting potential collisions/conflicts.

Standard Flarm equipment gets information from a gps receiver (for the participants' own position and speed and altitude and direction/heading), broadcasts this, and receives the same info from other participants. Displays can show other traffic with the various parameters, and create alerts if a collision danger seems imminent.

"Power Flarm" I understand to do all the same things PLUS receive, interpret, and display data from ADS-B.
Jan Olieslagers is online now  
Old 10th Jan 2015, 03:09
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,189
PowerFLARM does a wonderful job of picking up ADS-B traffic. It tells you where it is and where it's going

It also picks up Mode C/S but can only show a distance ring derived from signal strength.

Having had two close encounters with big iron before PF, I really appreciate that they can't sneak up on me any more
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2015, 15:44
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Cooper City, Florida
Posts: 77
It sounds as if Flarm would have been an excellent system if it had been adopted internationally, no need for an expensive transponder to provide ADS-B out, and I think that it would be better received by pilots than the US mandate for is ADS-B on cost grounds alone. The cost of meeting the 2020 requirement in the US will exceed the value of some older aircraft that operate around Class B, C and D airspace.


ADS-B is intended to replace ground based radar in many areas, and will be an essential part of the Air Traffic Control system. Do European ATC centers have access to Flarm data, which could then be pushed out to ADS-B users and so prevent conflicts?
creweite is offline  
Old 11th Jan 2015, 17:11
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
FLARM has a range of about 4 miles. It is intended as a collision avoidance system for relatively low speed aircraft (light GA, gliders). Next to useless for CAT / Mil jets or as a Radar replacement.

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2015, 21:05
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 240
PowerFLARM is claimed to have a range of > 10km (compared to 3-5km for FLARM). Any comments, Rod1?


Having seen the NATS collision avoidance box at the LAA rally, I was very keen to take part in the nationwide trial.


However, because of the delays and restriction of the trial to flying clubs in the South of England, I am seriously considering getting PowerFLARM shortly.


Anyone else?
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2015, 21:45
  #18 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,361
"PowerFLARM is claimed to have a range of > 10km (compared to 3-5km for FLARM). Any comments, Rod1?"

I ran my own airborne tests, but 4nm = about 7.5km so it might manage 10km on a good day

Rod1
Rod1 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2015, 22:33
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 240
Rod 1 "I ran my own airborne tests, but 4nm = about 7.5km so it might manage 10km on a good day"


So over 30 seconds warning even if closing speed is 400 knots?


I understand that you had problems with PowerFLARM not ignoring the aircraft's own transponder. Was this ever resolved?


And could the warning beeps be heard over the engine noise even if wearing ANR headsets?


And were you using the portable box or the core with a separate display and/or feeding the information to SkyDemon?


Finally, any other comments from your trial? Thanks in advance.
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2015, 22:47
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,189
PowerFlarm Range Dependent on Antenna Placement

Fibreglass gliders and tube and fabric towplanes are fairly simple cases.

Metal and carbon aircraft are more difficult, but generally will benefit from upper and lower external antennae.

That said the top of the glareshield produces good range numbers on ASW-27.

FLARM / POWERflarm Radio Range Analysis
RatherBeFlying is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.