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Plane crash near Basingstoke UK

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Plane crash near Basingstoke UK

Old 30th Jan 2015, 11:51
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Terrible tragedy. Good to hear the little lad is making a recovery, but at a huge cost to his future.
I am a relatively new PPL who is currently finishing my IR(r) and I have a young son and wife who I have taken in the 172 a couple of times, only in good VFR and local area flights.

It reads like 'get home itis' that contributed to the pilot even taking off in those conditions, particularly with his family on board but the AAB report will no doubt cast some light on the facts surrounding this incident. Does anyone know if he was IMC or IR (even if the plane wasn't certified for IR I presume it could have had some instruments fitted?).
Was this a kitplane?
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Old 26th Feb 2015, 13:28
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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This aircraft was featured here:

FLYER Forums ? View topic - March FLYER - Pioneer 400

and here:

Pioneer 400 - Flight Tests - Pilot
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 13:02
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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AAIB report published

the report is out. The pilot made some questionable decisions but that isn't the whole story, as is so often the case.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...tin_3-2016.pdf
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 19:28
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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A seized engine on short finals wasn't a scenario foreseen by many expert speculators on this thread.
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 22:43
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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A sobering read. I always try to ask myself, 'What am I doing to avoid that happening to me?' Engine issues aside, it has at least reminded me why I fly certified ancient spamcans instead of sexy homebuilts. One option he didn't have was to climb into IMC and get vectors for an ILS at Southampton.
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 23:12
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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tmmorris' post above reminds me of something I was told by my first boss in a flight test department, which remains excellent advice.

Before making any aeronautical decision, always run through your head the phrase "at the subsequent board of inquiry"
That said, if he had the kit and training, he absolutely could have climbed into IMC and asked for a diverting IAP into Southampton. He might be embarrassed with paperwork to do - and would be wise to declare a pan. But if he and the aeroplane could do it, it's a legitimate set of actions, albeit emergency ones.

G
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Old 10th Mar 2016, 23:47
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tmmorris View Post
it has at least reminded me why I fly certified ancient spamcans instead of sexy homebuilts
This isn't the first accident report which has caused that thought to cross my mind. It's not very fashionable though.
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 09:36
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Sadly the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up for this guy. Weather, low time, the added pressure of having prescious passengers, equipment failure, perhaps unfamiliar with the immediate local area all stacked up on him.

As others have said those top of the line LSA's have one heck of a lot of advanced systems and controls over your average spam can ( retract, CSP , turbo). I wonder if differences training is sufficient to get entry level pilots up to speed on operating them , perhaps a endorsement like the type needed to fly complex or high performance aircraft with an approved syllabus may be better?
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 15:18
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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something I was told by my first boss in a flight test department, which remains excellent advice.

Quote:
Before making any aeronautical decision, always run through your head the phrase "at the subsequent board of inquiry"
The advice I treasure suggests that you envisage the accident report. If you find yourself reading the phrase "The pilot, nevertheless, " then it's time to change the plan.
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 16:39
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
tmmorris' post above reminds me of something I was told by my first boss in a flight test department, which remains excellent advice.



That said, if he had the kit and training, he absolutely could have climbed into IMC and asked for a diverting IAP into Southampton. He might be embarrassed with paperwork to do - and would be wise to declare a pan. But if he and the aeroplane could do it, it's a legitimate set of actions, albeit emergency ones.

G
I don't think you've read the report. The die was cast. With the wastegate locked closed and the TCU protection logic disabled, it was a just a question of when not if the crank would let go on overspeed. Throttling up and climbing into IMC would guarantee a seizure.

Although of course the pilot was unaware of that.

Last edited by skyrangerpro; 11th Mar 2016 at 16:42. Reason: added last sentence
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 18:38
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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No I read it.

It is holes in the cheese lining up isn't it.

Proceeding into poor conditions, with an engine not properly understood. Could have climbed before the fault arose into IMC and escaped - or diverted earlier into one of the half dozen farmstrips along that route. Ultimately yes, the engine failure caused the crash, but because the opportunities not to be in a position where an engine failure could happen and cause that had been rejected.

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 11th Mar 2016 at 19:05.
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 21:02
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if the weather had any influence. If the problems had occurred in good VMC, and he decided to divert into Popham, would the result of an engine seizure on final to that runway have been different?
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 21:46
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Reads to me that his route was pretty direct: most likely following a GPS track (that's not a criticism of the pilot in that regard, why shouldn't he?) - but presumably he'd not have been so low if he hadn't had the weather issue. At 800ft rather than 400ft, and with a better view, he'd certainly have had a better chance of handling the engine failure in a survivable manner.

G
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 22:20
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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I can't help wondering why he didn't get a service from Solent Radar as soon as he left Bembridge. He did on the way down to Bembridge and they were very helpful. Although he was squawking 0011 I didn't see any record of him talking to them on the way back.
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Old 11th Mar 2016, 22:32
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Lots of people use the listening squawk service without talking to anybody - that's the point of it.

G
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Old 12th Mar 2016, 05:02
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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One option he didn't have was to climb into IMC and get vectors for an ILS at Southampton.
The aircraft had a comprehensive avionics kit to include localiser and GS, freezing level was sufficiently high to get to MSA, and the pilot had an IMC.

Not legal of course per PTF conditions, but to consider it not to be an option is incorrect in my view.
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Old 12th Mar 2016, 09:24
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Genghis,

While I have tremendous respect for your knowledge and experience I am beginning to realise why some people find you irritating.

I appreciate that lots of people use the squawk service without talking to anybody, I do it myself most of the time. My point was that he seemed happy to talk to Solent in good weather on the way to Bembridge but not to talk to them in marginal weather on the way back.

It is not a big point, just stirs my curiosity.
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Old 12th Mar 2016, 09:35
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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without the knowledge that the engine was now configured in such a way that a seizure was probable if called upon with maximum throttle, I would likely have done exactly what the pilot did - diverted into Popham, and he would have made it but for that reason.
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Old 12th Mar 2016, 09:40
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pulse1 View Post
Genghis,

While I have tremendous respect for your knowledge and experience I am beginning to realise why some people find you irritating.

I appreciate that lots of people use the squawk service without talking to anybody, I do it myself most of the time. My point was that he seemed happy to talk to Solent in good weather on the way to Bembridge but not to talk to them in marginal weather on the way back.

It is not a big point, just stirs my curiosity.
pulse, there would have been an entirely different atmosphere in that cockpit on the way back than on the way down, when multi tasking was a breeze. As the report said he was most likely overloaded, having to fly low with the responsibility of two other persons and a faulty mode C transponder, he didn't even switch to the Popham frequency which I think confirms that thinking. Listening squawks and a service would have moved right down my priority list.

the other adult was in the back, he couldn't delegate from up front.

Last edited by skyrangerpro; 12th Mar 2016 at 09:42. Reason: add last sentence
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Old 12th Mar 2016, 10:08
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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What we had was a low hour, low recency pilot in an aeroplane that was fairly complex and he wasn't yet very familiar with, in poor conditions.

Putting aside the pilot's arguably poor judgement in getting airborne, and then in not knocking the flight on the head earlier - I agree with skyranger. The pilot has probably got negative spare capacity there, and we're all told (rightly) "aviate, navigate, communicate" - so having squawked 0011 so people know where he is, he's knocked active communication on the head.

In that narrow context, his approach is reasonable. Again, the problem is that he got himself into that position, not in my opinion the specifics of not communicating when he was busy managing everything else going on.

G
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