Wondering what everyone is paying for 100LL
Avgas is actually wonderful stuff, the quality stuff in fact when compared with whatever else you might be burning. I left some sitting for three years once and had no problems with it - it was seemingly good as new, not withstanding the recommendation to use it after a year. I also drained the 100LL from a tank once and two days later hid it behind a couch in the living room to store for a period - with no smell whatsoever evident because it leaves no residue. Try that with auto fuel or (yeeeech) diesel.
Meanwhile if I accidentally leave any of my 'fleet' sitting with the horrendous alcohol, toluene and benzene stuff they call auto fuel in 2014, it gells, clogs everything in sight and takes time to fix. I spent three hours last weekend cleaning the pilot jets on one of my motorcycles after two months storage... which is really not how I like to spend my weekends!
Ergo, I love Avgas
Meanwhile if I accidentally leave any of my 'fleet' sitting with the horrendous alcohol, toluene and benzene stuff they call auto fuel in 2014, it gells, clogs everything in sight and takes time to fix. I spent three hours last weekend cleaning the pilot jets on one of my motorcycles after two months storage... which is really not how I like to spend my weekends!
Ergo, I love Avgas
Last edited by Silvaire1; 19th Dec 2014 at 22:08.
£1.89 is dear. Just checked one of my local airports, Nottingham and it's £1.53 a litre or $9.10 per US gallon.
Fill your boots...or tanks.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So do you all have to pay for each every time you land at a different airport. So on a 3 stop cross country you would have to write 3 checks one for each stop? If so what do they charge for a landing fee?
So do you all have to pay for each every time you land at a different airport. So on a 3 stop cross country you would have to write 3 checks one for each stop? If so what do they charge for a landing fee?
So yes on a 3 stop cross country you'd pay at each place - cash/card or they may invoice but often cheaper to pay cash.
Landing fee depends but for a typical single (PA28/C150 etc) at a general aviation field it's £10 to £15 but there are big differences.
Some charge more, some less... and checks are only used in certain countries (France comes to mind) and ever less - at most places it is either cash or plastic money.
In many European countries, there is a tradition for microlight fields to offer free landings - with "free" in the double meaning of no pay AND no restrictions apart from the legal.
Other fields will always charge a landing fee, in my own lucky country it is often a symbolic 5 euros but in the UK and in the Netherlands the authorities try to force aerodromes to be economically self-supporting companies which forces them to charge rather more. Plus there may be legal requirements like for fire fighting equipment or certified radio operators. AFAIK only France still keeps up the concept of publicly funded aerodromes like I understand you have in the USA.
BTW what was meant by "you all" is not entirely clear, I can only speak from my own position. What things are like in Latin America or Asia or Africa I have not the faintest idea.
In many European countries, there is a tradition for microlight fields to offer free landings - with "free" in the double meaning of no pay AND no restrictions apart from the legal.
Other fields will always charge a landing fee, in my own lucky country it is often a symbolic 5 euros but in the UK and in the Netherlands the authorities try to force aerodromes to be economically self-supporting companies which forces them to charge rather more. Plus there may be legal requirements like for fire fighting equipment or certified radio operators. AFAIK only France still keeps up the concept of publicly funded aerodromes like I understand you have in the USA.
BTW what was meant by "you all" is not entirely clear, I can only speak from my own position. What things are like in Latin America or Asia or Africa I have not the faintest idea.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 20th Dec 2014 at 16:59.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jan O - "you all" is a term used mostly in the S.E. US and is used when addressing 2 or more people(folks). "Hey how are you all doing"
As far as paying for landing I have only had to pay a handful of times flying in the US and Canada.
Landing and overnighting in Seattle, WA, US (KSEA) was $25.00. After a nine hour flight in my little Beech it was worth it.
White Horse, Yukon, Canada (CYXY) was $30.00, for and overnight.
My home field Juneau, AK, US (PAJN) is free, Part 121 and Part 135 carriers pay of course. They keep fees low for General Aviation!!!
Fuel just went down to $6.72 US/Gal.
So normally were I fly if you overnight you may have to pay, if you gas and go its free
As far as paying for landing I have only had to pay a handful of times flying in the US and Canada.
Landing and overnighting in Seattle, WA, US (KSEA) was $25.00. After a nine hour flight in my little Beech it was worth it.
White Horse, Yukon, Canada (CYXY) was $30.00, for and overnight.
My home field Juneau, AK, US (PAJN) is free, Part 121 and Part 135 carriers pay of course. They keep fees low for General Aviation!!!
Fuel just went down to $6.72 US/Gal.
So normally were I fly if you overnight you may have to pay, if you gas and go its free
Last edited by B19; 21st Dec 2014 at 05:32.
Yes, such is the sad state of affairs. The net effect is that, though NL is my nearest neighbour country, I have never flown there, while I do have been into France and Germany. Likely to remain like that, except possibly for a visit to an avionics shop at EHMZ.
@B19: this place being international, even if most participants are from the UK, I would find it polite to avoid linguistic regionalisms. Thanks for understanding.
@B19: this place being international, even if most participants are from the UK, I would find it polite to avoid linguistic regionalisms. Thanks for understanding.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading the posts has me wondering what it would be like to fly around Europe. Are the airports manned? Meaning is there always a controller, to give airport advisories during normal operating hours. The other question I had is English a standard language used when flying in countries like Germany, France, Spain, .........
B19, there are many differences in aviation between European countries. They all grapple with overregulation and mostly the infrastructure is private or fee-based. Beyond that there is limited uniformity.
English is used at international airports but often the local language is mandatory at local airports - so people don't have to learn a foreign language to be a pilot. ATC and similar is substantially different between countries. Some have pilot-controlled airports like in the US, and airports that people can use 24 hrs a day. More often there are opening hours, some form of ATC requirement, and flights must be recorded for the purpose of government audit. In Germany for instance no flying is permitted unless from a permitted airport with a 'flugleiter' (flight leader) or ATC observing the operation. VFR chart quality and uniformity is generally poor. Flight plans are generally (but not always) required between countries despite no border controls for travelers moving between the same countries on the ground. As a result there is a tendency for any long distance flight to be done with continuous ATC contact (something like US Flight Following) even when VFR.
So long distance GA flying within the EU is possible but procedurally complex. Some people find IFR to be the solution, because its puts the plane in the system and ATC has to find a routing. The downside is that requirements for both pilot and plane in European IFR are 'over the top' which drives the costs way up. The upside is that relatively short distances put the plane in completely different culture, so there are rewards for those patient enough to deal with the bureaucracy and able to spend the money.
Hope that is of some use or interest.
English is used at international airports but often the local language is mandatory at local airports - so people don't have to learn a foreign language to be a pilot. ATC and similar is substantially different between countries. Some have pilot-controlled airports like in the US, and airports that people can use 24 hrs a day. More often there are opening hours, some form of ATC requirement, and flights must be recorded for the purpose of government audit. In Germany for instance no flying is permitted unless from a permitted airport with a 'flugleiter' (flight leader) or ATC observing the operation. VFR chart quality and uniformity is generally poor. Flight plans are generally (but not always) required between countries despite no border controls for travelers moving between the same countries on the ground. As a result there is a tendency for any long distance flight to be done with continuous ATC contact (something like US Flight Following) even when VFR.
So long distance GA flying within the EU is possible but procedurally complex. Some people find IFR to be the solution, because its puts the plane in the system and ATC has to find a routing. The downside is that requirements for both pilot and plane in European IFR are 'over the top' which drives the costs way up. The upside is that relatively short distances put the plane in completely different culture, so there are rewards for those patient enough to deal with the bureaucracy and able to spend the money.
Hope that is of some use or interest.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Silvaire1--Very interesting. Don't ever think I will get the opportunity to fly in Europe, but it is interesting to hear about the different regulations. I do get into Canada from time to time. Seems like US customs put you through more of a ringer than the Canadians. Last time I Flew into Juneau, AK from Canada I had to park in the "Blue Square" and remain in the plane until customs officer arrived!!! Thanks for the input.
@B19: I have never flown outside Europe, actually I have never left Europe in any way, so I can't really compare. But it seems obvious that, compared to the US, or to Canada, Europe is a smallish place, with lots of local differences. Some countries always use English in the radio, mostly the smaller and Nordic ones. Bigger and/or more Southern countries mostly use local language plus at the larger fields English too.
Some countries (Germany, for example) oblige aerodromes to have a (licensed!) radio operator, though this person would not be called a controller unless at a controlled field. OTOH French authorities do all they can to make life easy for aerodrome operators, so that most fields merely have a published "air to air" frequency where blind calls are expected.
And don't even think of flying into Russia, where altitudes are in metres and wind speeds in metres per second.
Some countries (Germany, for example) oblige aerodromes to have a (licensed!) radio operator, though this person would not be called a controller unless at a controlled field. OTOH French authorities do all they can to make life easy for aerodrome operators, so that most fields merely have a published "air to air" frequency where blind calls are expected.
And don't even think of flying into Russia, where altitudes are in metres and wind speeds in metres per second.
It's not bureaucracy that drives up costs, it's the total lack of federal funding. Most larger European airfields are private businesses. They pay corporation taxes, local taxes, they pay for runways, taxiways & hangars, all the staff at the airfield, inc ATC, work for the airfield. They pay for all of this by selling fuel & charging landing fees, hangarage, etc. Like most businesses they will shut down during those hours when there's not enough traffic to justify the costs of remaining open. I've never heard of a "government audit" of aircraft movements but, like any business, airfields will need to keep & file accounts. Some may also have planning ("zoning") requirements limiting annual movements.
Then there's a loooong tail of smaller airfields run as clubs or small businesses, each with their own modus operandi which in practice just means you ask first.
Flight plans are mandatory for flights that begin & end in different countries. Most of continental Europe (at least the western parts) are in a customs union. The UK isn't, so customs required to & from UK. In practice that means landing at a customs airfield and/or a few hours notice. From Europe to UK you can land in your back garden if you want, so long as you tell customs in advance when & where.
All but one country publishes an IAIP online, detailing all applicable regulations and larger airfield procedures. If, like Silvaire, you rarely venture outside your own personal goldfish bowl you might find this "procedurally complex" but in practice it's relatively simple. Thousands upon thousands of pilots do it regularly witthout a problem.
Then there's a loooong tail of smaller airfields run as clubs or small businesses, each with their own modus operandi which in practice just means you ask first.
Flight plans are mandatory for flights that begin & end in different countries. Most of continental Europe (at least the western parts) are in a customs union. The UK isn't, so customs required to & from UK. In practice that means landing at a customs airfield and/or a few hours notice. From Europe to UK you can land in your back garden if you want, so long as you tell customs in advance when & where.
All but one country publishes an IAIP online, detailing all applicable regulations and larger airfield procedures. If, like Silvaire, you rarely venture outside your own personal goldfish bowl you might find this "procedurally complex" but in practice it's relatively simple. Thousands upon thousands of pilots do it regularly witthout a problem.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: where should i be today????
Age: 57
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's around £1.97 per litre at Cranfield (apparently this includes 10p/litre that the aerodrome operator has added).
Whenever i land away I uplift fuel to full tanks. The thought of refuelling at home and lining greedy pockets irks me; even a couple of pounds saved elsewhere means that CU doesn't get any more of my hard earned cash
Cheapest I've found to date was Gloucester Airport at circa £1.65 per litre.
Whenever i land away I uplift fuel to full tanks. The thought of refuelling at home and lining greedy pockets irks me; even a couple of pounds saved elsewhere means that CU doesn't get any more of my hard earned cash
Cheapest I've found to date was Gloucester Airport at circa £1.65 per litre.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ALL really interesting, I think I'll do a simple spread sheet in the next day or two with prices everyone is paying and were they are. Got to go change a cylinder on my little Beech today. Have a good day and safe/Merry Christmas.
Jan O - wind speed in meters per second sounds funny to me.....
Jan O - wind speed in meters per second sounds funny to me.....
Last edited by B19; 22nd Dec 2014 at 16:02.
Prop swinger, you're clearly correct that the main issue for GA in Europe is lack of government funded GA infrastructure, but that wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if government didn't charge so much for the GA services they don't provide, and if there weren't redundant layers of regulatory bodies, all doing little except building roadblocks and collecting the taxes you mention in the service of self perpetuation.
You would hope that paying many Euro/Pounds/Etc in fuel tax as a fee to government for every hour flown would provide more services and more effective, joined up regulation, but it doesn't. That makes GA travel in Europe unnecessarily complex, as described. GA flight plans between Shengen Zone countries with no border controls are a pretty good example in my mind.
I do spend considerable time in Europe and elsewhere every year, have flown in UK, Germany, Austria and Italy, hold European citizenship, and pay tax on European income too, just as I'm sure many others here travel worldwide. So "gold fish bowls" are not the issue at hand.
You would hope that paying many Euro/Pounds/Etc in fuel tax as a fee to government for every hour flown would provide more services and more effective, joined up regulation, but it doesn't. That makes GA travel in Europe unnecessarily complex, as described. GA flight plans between Shengen Zone countries with no border controls are a pretty good example in my mind.
I do spend considerable time in Europe and elsewhere every year, have flown in UK, Germany, Austria and Italy, hold European citizenship, and pay tax on European income too, just as I'm sure many others here travel worldwide. So "gold fish bowls" are not the issue at hand.
Last edited by Silvaire1; 22nd Dec 2014 at 16:00. Reason: Grammar correction
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is what I tallied for AV gas prices
Where............... Price
Alaska.............. $7.00 US/gal
Shropshire, UK... 1.68 pound/liter
Narirobi............. 7.86 US/liter
Suffolk ............. 1.89 pound/ liter
Canada............. 2.00 dollar/liter
East Cheam....... 6.50-7.00 pound/gal
Nottingham ..... .1.53 pound/liter
Shoreham......... 1.84 pound/liter
Cranfield........... 1.97 pound/liter
Please excuse any misspellings or if I missed you post. I am new to PPRN, have been flying and an aircraft owner for 18 years. Thanks for you comments. Merry Christmas
Bill B. (B19)
Where............... Price
Alaska.............. $7.00 US/gal
Shropshire, UK... 1.68 pound/liter
Narirobi............. 7.86 US/liter
Suffolk ............. 1.89 pound/ liter
Canada............. 2.00 dollar/liter
East Cheam....... 6.50-7.00 pound/gal
Nottingham ..... .1.53 pound/liter
Shoreham......... 1.84 pound/liter
Cranfield........... 1.97 pound/liter
Please excuse any misspellings or if I missed you post. I am new to PPRN, have been flying and an aircraft owner for 18 years. Thanks for you comments. Merry Christmas
Bill B. (B19)