collision
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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I was taught *never* to fly overhead a parachuting site, never to do an overhead join at an airfield with a parachuting symbol, and to give them a wide berth at all other times. I'm horrified that people bimble about in the sky without checking for parachuting (and other activities, too).
But I have had "bad experience" of parachuting sites. On a jolly last year with another PPL friend, we called a parachuting site in the Cambs/Leics/Lincs/Northants area to ask if they were active. We were given a right royal telling-off on the radio for even thinking of going near. Since we were VFR on top of an 8/8 overcast at the time, that made me very uneasy. We flew 10nm South of them to avoid any risk of hitting any IMC parachutists.
It wasn't Sibson. I phoned the place when we landed, and got more abuse. Not "polite warning" - but downright abuse. My buddy was tempted to complain to the CAA, but in the end didn't bother.
But I have had "bad experience" of parachuting sites. On a jolly last year with another PPL friend, we called a parachuting site in the Cambs/Leics/Lincs/Northants area to ask if they were active. We were given a right royal telling-off on the radio for even thinking of going near. Since we were VFR on top of an 8/8 overcast at the time, that made me very uneasy. We flew 10nm South of them to avoid any risk of hitting any IMC parachutists.
It wasn't Sibson. I phoned the place when we landed, and got more abuse. Not "polite warning" - but downright abuse. My buddy was tempted to complain to the CAA, but in the end didn't bother.
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Dear Jerry
I didnt know that you frequented these pages...
However the parachute centre management certainly isnt professional. Although the staff are and work like troopers to keep the business going. I dont often believe that this is known by the afformentioned.
I do agree that the airfield does run extremely well and I enjoy the atmosphere greatly. I must question the ability of the 206 pilot, (who looks like honey monster) has he passed is ATPL exams? or his PPL for that matter?
Hope all is well down at sins knob...
One two three one
PS can aircrew mechs count higher than this?
I didnt know that you frequented these pages...
However the parachute centre management certainly isnt professional. Although the staff are and work like troopers to keep the business going. I dont often believe that this is known by the afformentioned.
I do agree that the airfield does run extremely well and I enjoy the atmosphere greatly. I must question the ability of the 206 pilot, (who looks like honey monster) has he passed is ATPL exams? or his PPL for that matter?
Hope all is well down at sins knob...
One two three one
PS can aircrew mechs count higher than this?
Last edited by trolleydollylover; 4th Jun 2002 at 21:16.
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Tragic.
I have flown for a long time out of Weston on the Green (D 129)and Kidlington.
Gliders and parachutists can mix - albeit on the ground at Weston we sometimes felt we played second fiddle - losing out on a launch slots etc - but always "better safe".
Pre flight briefing for Weston gliders always includes - do not go in the DZ which today is here ... infringements were occasional, most often by "strangers".
Rookie parachutists can be a hazard, landing well outside the intended area - but since they are on are static released at 2,000 or thereabouts, they are typically low and visible. The accident mentioned sounds like someone was in free fall - I wonder how high they were when they collided & presumably the glider pilot did not get a chance to jump ?. (Most glider pilots wear parachutes - unlike their powered bretheren - but getting out of a glider at high 'g' is not straightforward ...).
Basic advice is obviously - power pilots stay far away from any DZ - or only enter it when the parachutists give clearance. (Do the frequencies need to be displayed more clearly ?. Nav warning bulletins ?).
At Kidlington they are well used to Weston being active and pilots rejoining from anywhere east are quite often advised to come in via Westcott - passing well to the south of Weston.
D 129
I have flown for a long time out of Weston on the Green (D 129)and Kidlington.
Gliders and parachutists can mix - albeit on the ground at Weston we sometimes felt we played second fiddle - losing out on a launch slots etc - but always "better safe".
Pre flight briefing for Weston gliders always includes - do not go in the DZ which today is here ... infringements were occasional, most often by "strangers".
Rookie parachutists can be a hazard, landing well outside the intended area - but since they are on are static released at 2,000 or thereabouts, they are typically low and visible. The accident mentioned sounds like someone was in free fall - I wonder how high they were when they collided & presumably the glider pilot did not get a chance to jump ?. (Most glider pilots wear parachutes - unlike their powered bretheren - but getting out of a glider at high 'g' is not straightforward ...).
Basic advice is obviously - power pilots stay far away from any DZ - or only enter it when the parachutists give clearance. (Do the frequencies need to be displayed more clearly ?. Nav warning bulletins ?).
At Kidlington they are well used to Weston being active and pilots rejoining from anywhere east are quite often advised to come in via Westcott - passing well to the south of Weston.
D 129
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Tacpot
I dont know where you got your information from, but in this country we dont do static line jumps from 10,000ft.
Most DZs also use Ram Air parachutes with forward speeds of up to 20 Knots. There are only 2 DZs that I know off that still use the old round parachutes for training.
There is no limit reguarding the upper wind limits, we are only restricted by the ground winds so dont assume anything, we will jump in it if you can fly in it.
Lets take the worst case where a jumper has a premature opening at an exit height of say 10,000ft with an upper of wind of 40knots and a 6.6 mins in the air which you suggest and facing down wind because he/she is disorientated. Not forgetting to add on a canopy speed of 20 knots making a ground speed of 60 knots. That makes a distance of 6.6 Naut miles if my whiz wheel is correct. But like I say, this is worst case.
In this country static line RamAir is done from 3500ft and free fall from up to 15,000 ft and are open by 2200ft. The 5NM you suggest is a good distance as a minimum, any closer you could be asking for trouble. Not only from jumpers but from jump aircraft in the decent.
You can also check with the DZ as most DZs use the common freq of 129.9 in the UK.
If anyone is flying in the east Fife area dont be afraid to give me a call when you passing the DZ at St Andrews I dont bite.
Floppy
I dont know where you got your information from, but in this country we dont do static line jumps from 10,000ft.
Most DZs also use Ram Air parachutes with forward speeds of up to 20 Knots. There are only 2 DZs that I know off that still use the old round parachutes for training.
There is no limit reguarding the upper wind limits, we are only restricted by the ground winds so dont assume anything, we will jump in it if you can fly in it.
Lets take the worst case where a jumper has a premature opening at an exit height of say 10,000ft with an upper of wind of 40knots and a 6.6 mins in the air which you suggest and facing down wind because he/she is disorientated. Not forgetting to add on a canopy speed of 20 knots making a ground speed of 60 knots. That makes a distance of 6.6 Naut miles if my whiz wheel is correct. But like I say, this is worst case.
In this country static line RamAir is done from 3500ft and free fall from up to 15,000 ft and are open by 2200ft. The 5NM you suggest is a good distance as a minimum, any closer you could be asking for trouble. Not only from jumpers but from jump aircraft in the decent.
You can also check with the DZ as most DZs use the common freq of 129.9 in the UK.
If anyone is flying in the east Fife area dont be afraid to give me a call when you passing the DZ at St Andrews I dont bite.
Floppy
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The ´97 accident in france is not only a sad day for pilots, but even more for justice. The skydivers jumped through a closed cloud layer and hit the twinseater glider flying about 500 ft below the clouds, so there were about 2 seconds between the skydiver falling out of the clouds and the collision. Nearly impossible for a pilot to react, even if he would have known that there are skydivers.
The parachutist was killed and both pilots survived. They were charged, mainly because they were closer to the cloud base as allowed (500 instead of 1000 ft). Nothing said about jumping through 8/8 AC might be illegal by the skydiver. Strange court there in france, especially for non french.
I am flying frequently at a (french) airfield with very mixed traffic (gliders, mororgliders, planes, microlight, models and parachutists) and it´s working pretty well. The parachutist´s plane announces the jumps 5 and 1 Minutes before and reports the moment when the skydivers are out. So if you listen to your radio, you are aware of the parachutists and there are no problems. If you are below 1500 ft on the 5 Minute anouncement, you are either allready on the ground or still well below opening altitude of the parachutes, if you are above you can easily leave the drop zone for a few minutes.
The parachutist was killed and both pilots survived. They were charged, mainly because they were closer to the cloud base as allowed (500 instead of 1000 ft). Nothing said about jumping through 8/8 AC might be illegal by the skydiver. Strange court there in france, especially for non french.
I am flying frequently at a (french) airfield with very mixed traffic (gliders, mororgliders, planes, microlight, models and parachutists) and it´s working pretty well. The parachutist´s plane announces the jumps 5 and 1 Minutes before and reports the moment when the skydivers are out. So if you listen to your radio, you are aware of the parachutists and there are no problems. If you are below 1500 ft on the 5 Minute anouncement, you are either allready on the ground or still well below opening altitude of the parachutes, if you are above you can easily leave the drop zone for a few minutes.
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Like my namesake earlier in this thread, I too fly at WOTG or D129 as it is probably better known to most GA pilots.
As stated, the operation works well at WOTG most of the time, (albeit it can be frustrating at times!) provided that the pilots, the DZ controller and equally the parachutists are briefed about what is going on and who goes where! You would not believe the number of times you see parachutists land or walk across the winch cables though, usually to the frustration of both the DZ controller and the pilot who is waiting for a launch!
When RAFSPA is operating, every launch is cleared via the DZ controller (133.65 if anyone wants to maintain a listening watch) and the two activities are kept pretty much apart.
One query from this unfortunate incident though:-
Q. The inversion on Saturday was about 3,500 AGL - presumably the K8 was local soaring, so if the para was in free-fall at this point, isnt this a bit low or was he/she under canopy when the collision happened?
The biggest danger to all of us is complacency, how often do you see powered aircraft landing short with canopies in the air etc?
As stated, the operation works well at WOTG most of the time, (albeit it can be frustrating at times!) provided that the pilots, the DZ controller and equally the parachutists are briefed about what is going on and who goes where! You would not believe the number of times you see parachutists land or walk across the winch cables though, usually to the frustration of both the DZ controller and the pilot who is waiting for a launch!
When RAFSPA is operating, every launch is cleared via the DZ controller (133.65 if anyone wants to maintain a listening watch) and the two activities are kept pretty much apart.
One query from this unfortunate incident though:-
Q. The inversion on Saturday was about 3,500 AGL - presumably the K8 was local soaring, so if the para was in free-fall at this point, isnt this a bit low or was he/she under canopy when the collision happened?
The biggest danger to all of us is complacency, how often do you see powered aircraft landing short with canopies in the air etc?
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I am a PPL with just over 150 hours, so not very experienced.
On my first trip to Lashenden/Headcorn about two years ago, I phoned beforehand for the usual permission and information. They didn't say anything about parachuting, but were very friendly.
I joined downwind, and when on final was astonished to see parachutists descending off to the right of the threshold at what seemed like a hundred metres (but was probably more).
I took a double-check and called final a second time just to check I hadn't misheard and could proceed.
I felt concerned that a gust could easily blow a parachutist (they looked like trainees) towards the runway, but then assumed that the operators know what they're doing, and that everything was under control. Or is it up to me and my discretion as the guy flying the plane to go round/not land? Who has control in these circumstances?
Confused of Reading.
On my first trip to Lashenden/Headcorn about two years ago, I phoned beforehand for the usual permission and information. They didn't say anything about parachuting, but were very friendly.
I joined downwind, and when on final was astonished to see parachutists descending off to the right of the threshold at what seemed like a hundred metres (but was probably more).
I took a double-check and called final a second time just to check I hadn't misheard and could proceed.
I felt concerned that a gust could easily blow a parachutist (they looked like trainees) towards the runway, but then assumed that the operators know what they're doing, and that everything was under control. Or is it up to me and my discretion as the guy flying the plane to go round/not land? Who has control in these circumstances?
Confused of Reading.
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Parachute drop sites are a real problem for every airspace user. The circles on the map do not constitute the extent of the drop zone. Consider Weston for instance, there are occaisons there when they could be dropping outside the DA. At Sibson or Hinton I should imagine they regularly drop outside the circle; I would appreciate a comment from a more knowledgable party.
The other big problem is that there are many drop sites that are dispalyed on the 1/2 mill. map that only operate on a 28 day basis, ie. thereby not requiring planning permission. So some of the so-called zones shown on the map are not active for most of the time. how is a GA pilot, glider, micro, ballon or whatever supposed to know?
Wouldn't it be a better system if these part-time zones were activated by notam, in the same way as PJE's are notified when not associated with a designated drop site? I think the maps should also dispaly drop zones in red and not in blue.
The other big problem is that there are many drop sites that are dispalyed on the 1/2 mill. map that only operate on a 28 day basis, ie. thereby not requiring planning permission. So some of the so-called zones shown on the map are not active for most of the time. how is a GA pilot, glider, micro, ballon or whatever supposed to know?
Wouldn't it be a better system if these part-time zones were activated by notam, in the same way as PJE's are notified when not associated with a designated drop site? I think the maps should also dispaly drop zones in red and not in blue.
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I regularly jump from Sibson and from my experience it would be very unusual to exit outside the circle shown on the charts.
Normal exit from the Let is 13 - 13.5K. Freefall is down to between 5k (AFF students/tandems) and 2.5k for experienced jumpers. Normally we wouldn't jump with a wind groundspeed much above 20k. As we effectively drop through a tunnel over or close to our intended landing point a normal 60 second freefall would result in the following drift:
At 60nm wind speed 1 nautical mile
At 50nm wind speed .83 of a nautical mile
At 40nm wind speed .66 of a nautical mile
At 30nm wind speed .5 of a nautical mile
As the circle around a dropzone has a diameter of 5nm it is extremely unlikely that you would encounter a freefalling jumper outside the zone. On the other hand occasionaly the jump master will get the spot wrong so keep well clear. Its also worth noting that jumpers don't all exit the aircraft at the same time so there will be something of a spread although all would be expected pretty much to be within the dropzone shown on the ICAO charts.
TDL
Who exactly do you define as the management of the centre? I hope you do not include the Chief instructor in your critcisms. I agree with your comments about the staff but have found the
whole operation to be professional and Sibson has the best safety record of any drop zone in the UK.
Smarthawke,
I didn't notice the Robin on Saturday but watched two microlights in lose formation do an overhead join exactly over the landing pit.
Full opposite rudder
As not every pilot studies the notams before every flight isn't it better that every dropzone be considered constantly active. As a glider pilot for 27 years and a power pilot for 23 years I can't say that a 2.5 nm deviation from track is a major inconvenience to anyone.
Normal exit from the Let is 13 - 13.5K. Freefall is down to between 5k (AFF students/tandems) and 2.5k for experienced jumpers. Normally we wouldn't jump with a wind groundspeed much above 20k. As we effectively drop through a tunnel over or close to our intended landing point a normal 60 second freefall would result in the following drift:
At 60nm wind speed 1 nautical mile
At 50nm wind speed .83 of a nautical mile
At 40nm wind speed .66 of a nautical mile
At 30nm wind speed .5 of a nautical mile
As the circle around a dropzone has a diameter of 5nm it is extremely unlikely that you would encounter a freefalling jumper outside the zone. On the other hand occasionaly the jump master will get the spot wrong so keep well clear. Its also worth noting that jumpers don't all exit the aircraft at the same time so there will be something of a spread although all would be expected pretty much to be within the dropzone shown on the ICAO charts.
TDL
Who exactly do you define as the management of the centre? I hope you do not include the Chief instructor in your critcisms. I agree with your comments about the staff but have found the
whole operation to be professional and Sibson has the best safety record of any drop zone in the UK.
Smarthawke,
I didn't notice the Robin on Saturday but watched two microlights in lose formation do an overhead join exactly over the landing pit.
Full opposite rudder
As not every pilot studies the notams before every flight isn't it better that every dropzone be considered constantly active. As a glider pilot for 27 years and a power pilot for 23 years I can't say that a 2.5 nm deviation from track is a major inconvenience to anyone.
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jayemm
Headcorn is an A/G 'drome - you can call final as often as you like, it's down to you to decide what to do ;-)
I think you know the answer - you and only you.
It can indeed be interesting at Headcorn. I did my 3rd hour of solo down there, 6 or 7 circuits, with an Extra doing aeros practice *inside* the circuit - ie, halfway between the runway and the downwind leg. S/he was above me, then below me, then above me again, but always out there on my left. Eventually I got tired, and a bit rattled, and did a full stop.
I took a double-check and called final a second time just to check I hadn't misheard and could proceed.
I felt concerned that a gust could easily blow a parachutist (they looked like trainees) towards the runway, but then assumed that the operators know what they're doing, and that everything was under control. Or is it up to me and my discretion as the guy flying the plane to go round/not land? Who has control in these circumstances?
It can indeed be interesting at Headcorn. I did my 3rd hour of solo down there, 6 or 7 circuits, with an Extra doing aeros practice *inside* the circuit - ie, halfway between the runway and the downwind leg. S/he was above me, then below me, then above me again, but always out there on my left. Eventually I got tired, and a bit rattled, and did a full stop.
full opposite rudder said
and Legalapproach replied
Unfortunately you seem to be talking about different circles. The circles around FFPSs on the UK half-mil charts are just 3 nm in diameter, not 5 nm.
I disagree that constantly avoiding FFPSs isn't a major inconvenience. If I look at a flight from Cambridge to Bristol for example, there are 6 FFPSs (and at least 4 gliding sites) that are potential issues. Throw in a little weather avoidance and it's a nightmare.
Considering that FFPSs are 'hot' for only a tiny fraction of the time, the burden on other airspace users is, IMHO, a greater burden than most controlled airspace, taking into account the utility that the primary users of the airspace get.
The best thing that happened to this interaction was the arrangement described in AIC 28/1999 and the requirement for DZ operators to inform a local ATSU of the activity of the DZ. Now, by talking to Luton and Brize, which I probably would have done anyway, I can be assured that I will be able to find out the activity status easily.
Parachute drop sites are a real problem for every airspace user. The circles on the map do not constitute the extent of the drop zone.
As the circle around a dropzone has a diameter of 5nm it is extremely unlikely that you would encounter a freefalling jumper outside the zone.
I disagree that constantly avoiding FFPSs isn't a major inconvenience. If I look at a flight from Cambridge to Bristol for example, there are 6 FFPSs (and at least 4 gliding sites) that are potential issues. Throw in a little weather avoidance and it's a nightmare.
Considering that FFPSs are 'hot' for only a tiny fraction of the time, the burden on other airspace users is, IMHO, a greater burden than most controlled airspace, taking into account the utility that the primary users of the airspace get.
The best thing that happened to this interaction was the arrangement described in AIC 28/1999 and the requirement for DZ operators to inform a local ATSU of the activity of the DZ. Now, by talking to Luton and Brize, which I probably would have done anyway, I can be assured that I will be able to find out the activity status easily.
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Bookworm,
Erm yes you are quite right although when I measured it against a map a couple of days ago it appeared to be be 5 nm. Don't know where that came from although it may have been the vodka sent by brother approach who is with th EEC delegation in Moscow. Having said that why is it a great problem as the jumpers will still be within the circle on the map. As to obstacles, on virtually any cross country there will be plenty of areas to avoid so again what is the problem? If the circle is only 3.5nm its an even smaller deviation.
If you find that avoiding such areas is a nightmare then I am afraid that may say more about your concerns as a pilot than the preponderance of avoidance areas. I suspect that what you are really complaining about is the inconvenience of having to plan around such areas rather than actually encountering them as they cannot amount to more than a minor inconvenience to most pilots. I don't mean to appear personal but from persoanl experience I am sure that we have all experienced minor navigational inconveniences but deal with them.
If I fly from East Anglia to Bristol I experience a number of deviations but c'est la vie I w't really describe them as a nightmare.
Erm yes you are quite right although when I measured it against a map a couple of days ago it appeared to be be 5 nm. Don't know where that came from although it may have been the vodka sent by brother approach who is with th EEC delegation in Moscow. Having said that why is it a great problem as the jumpers will still be within the circle on the map. As to obstacles, on virtually any cross country there will be plenty of areas to avoid so again what is the problem? If the circle is only 3.5nm its an even smaller deviation.
If you find that avoiding such areas is a nightmare then I am afraid that may say more about your concerns as a pilot than the preponderance of avoidance areas. I suspect that what you are really complaining about is the inconvenience of having to plan around such areas rather than actually encountering them as they cannot amount to more than a minor inconvenience to most pilots. I don't mean to appear personal but from persoanl experience I am sure that we have all experienced minor navigational inconveniences but deal with them.
If I fly from East Anglia to Bristol I experience a number of deviations but c'est la vie I w't really describe them as a nightmare.
Legalapproach
I take your point. "Nightmare" is too strong a word. But I have a perception that many accidents are workload-related. It's never the case that avoidance of a particular hazard itself gets the pilot into trouble, but rather it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
It's all very well to talk about the 'inconvenience of having to plan around', but most plans have to be dynamic. Weather and ATC conspire against a pilot to ensure that even the best battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy. If you can manage to fly IFR from East Anglia to Bristol out of ground contact on a convective day with serious weather around, and be 100% confident that you can give all the hazards along the way due consideration, then I'll happily admit that you're a better pilot than me.
I fully support the cause of all airspace users, and I firmly believe that we need to learn to coexist. There does however, need to be a balance between the rights and responsibilities of the various parties. The DZ notification arrangement in place for the last few years has done a great deal for that balance.
I take your point. "Nightmare" is too strong a word. But I have a perception that many accidents are workload-related. It's never the case that avoidance of a particular hazard itself gets the pilot into trouble, but rather it's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
It's all very well to talk about the 'inconvenience of having to plan around', but most plans have to be dynamic. Weather and ATC conspire against a pilot to ensure that even the best battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy. If you can manage to fly IFR from East Anglia to Bristol out of ground contact on a convective day with serious weather around, and be 100% confident that you can give all the hazards along the way due consideration, then I'll happily admit that you're a better pilot than me.
I fully support the cause of all airspace users, and I firmly believe that we need to learn to coexist. There does however, need to be a balance between the rights and responsibilities of the various parties. The DZ notification arrangement in place for the last few years has done a great deal for that balance.
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As a regular visitor to Hinton (almost weekly), I read this thread with interest.
Heres a story......
On a quick hop from Turweston on the day before the accident, I immediately switched to Hintons Frequency which, incidently, the parachuting people use all the time, and listened to a general broadcast announcing a drop (as they always seem to do when I'm just about to join!). I kept my distance (I prefer about 4nm to be safe) and waited for the announcement that everyone was down). Turning onto final, I was cut up not once, but twice, by a motor glider who made no radio announcements (and obviously wasn't on a listening watch, if he even had a radio). I then watched him taxi for another departure during the next drop!
Ive never been gliding, so I don't even know if gliders normally have radios. But it seems to me that with the good, friendly advise and information from the people at Hinton, a glider pilot, or any other for that matter, should have a radio and use it.
Communication - I know many aging pilots who think that a Radio interferes with the freedom of flying. God knows how they got so aged............
Heres a story......
On a quick hop from Turweston on the day before the accident, I immediately switched to Hintons Frequency which, incidently, the parachuting people use all the time, and listened to a general broadcast announcing a drop (as they always seem to do when I'm just about to join!). I kept my distance (I prefer about 4nm to be safe) and waited for the announcement that everyone was down). Turning onto final, I was cut up not once, but twice, by a motor glider who made no radio announcements (and obviously wasn't on a listening watch, if he even had a radio). I then watched him taxi for another departure during the next drop!
Ive never been gliding, so I don't even know if gliders normally have radios. But it seems to me that with the good, friendly advise and information from the people at Hinton, a glider pilot, or any other for that matter, should have a radio and use it.
Communication - I know many aging pilots who think that a Radio interferes with the freedom of flying. God knows how they got so aged............
