Auster,Champ,Taylorcraft pa-15 or similar???

[ecosse]

Hi there i am looking for a permit aircraft similar to those mentioned above.

I will be maintaining the a/c my self hence the LAA Permit type.

I am 6"2 and around 90kg which may Limit my choices.

I will be operating from grass strip (strathaven hopefully) where i am currently doing my NPPL(M) I hope to do a conversion once my licence is obtained, and operate and fly something similar to those mentioned,

I would ideally like it to run on MOGAS if possible?

something with good STOL as i may be going into some small air strips due to fuel/weight/slow flying limitations?

I do plan in going 2 up as i don't like getting to lonely so this to may limit the plan somewhat

I am looking for some suggestions to help narrow my choices, I am open to low wing aircraft suggestions too.

Look forward to any suggestions, also wouldn't mind going to see a few of these type of aircraft if anyone in scotland has anything i would be interested in paying for some fuel and get taken for a spin.

ohh and my dream a/c was a piper cub, but i have realised there are aircraft 15k cheaper with similar, sometimes better specs, something around 15k would be good and i'm sure i could find say a champ at that price in better condition than a 25k cub?

so my budget is around the 15k mark, any suggestions please put them on a post card

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Rans S6

While not one of your vintage types, a Rans S6 would fulfil a lot of your other criteria. They are good load lifters and are happy (in fact prefer) to operate on MOGAS. They are good short field machines and you have a choice of flavours. You could go for an S6-ESD (microlight) with a Rotax 912 engine. This would do all you require, without the need to convert to NPPL (SSEA). There are nose and tail wheel versions. I gather that Randy Schlitter, the designer and manufacturer, is over 6’ 5” tall and designed the aircraft to fit his frame.

You might also like to look at Jodels, although they may be more limited on the height consideration. They are nice aircraft and a bit quicker than the Rans, they do prefer AVGAS. Like the Rans they will need hangerage being a wood / fabric airframe.

Happy hunting on AFORS etc.

[piperboy84]

Find another like minded chap to chip in another 15G's and get yourself a Maule, plenty room, 4 seat, 4door, STOL, Mogas STC, easy to work on, land it anywhere ( and I mean ANYWHERE) most used ones are IFR equipped, a lot more comfortable than those draughty old buggers your thinking about.

Oh and just under 1000lbs of useful load

[ak7274]

Are Maules on a permit now?
My Jodel isn't draughty.
Wouldn't recommend it to anyone over 6ft though.
It also runs happily on mogas.
A few Aeronca Chiefs are on permit and being side by side are socially acceptable. again may be a bit tight for the larger form.

[ecosse]

Thanks for the replays guys,

RE.Rans, looks like a nice first time go anywhere aircraft, but reminds me of those r/c trainer aircraft i used to have, then one day a guy showed up with a 1/4 scale blue and white Cub and i thought "now thats an aircraft"

thats when my love affair for old vintage style craft started. The same old guy had hundreds of scratch built champs,t-craft,minors,moths etc, which is why i love these types of craft, nothing against the RANS I know they are great aircraft, but not my dream plane, I've had a few model cubs etc to, and then suddenly realised i could actually afford one.

RE,Maule, nice too but not something i had considered but i will keep any eye out for one


I had considered the chief too and hopefully will get to see one up close soon.

Is there anywhere i can see some of these aircraft all in one place? a fly in perhaps? in north of england?

Its bona be a bugger travelling around looking for planes to try out for size lol

Ive done some re search and the Champ/Chief's seem to be ones with most room, i do like the vagabond

Kenny

[Mach Jump]

Watch out for the W&B on the Champ/Chief. They all seem to be around 150lbs heavier than they should be! I don't think anyone worried about that when they were new.


MJ

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Is there anywhere i can see some of these aircraft all in one place?

Sorry, you've just missed the LAA Rally at Sywell. You would have seen almost every variation on the theme. Keep an eye open for fly-ins and other gatherings; people are usually more than happy to talk about their aircraft.

This may be a 'Granny Egg Instruction', but this website lists most of the events in the fly-in calendar. I appreciate that you may have some travelling to the more 'south-centric' events, perhaps cost sharing with pilots in your area will offer opportunities?

I'd also recommend you check the Light Aircraft Association, as you look to be heading towards their type of aeroplane.

[ecosse]

Thanks guys i will keep you all posted of any developments

[Them thar hills]

Strip machine

Ecosse


You'll probably finish up with either a Jodel 117 / D120 or maybe a 90 horse PA17 Vagabond. Scotland isn't noted for having plenty of airfields where you can get fuel. A Jodel 117 carries 25 gallons and usually cruises at 95kt, which may be more practical when it comes to fuel stops. The 90 horse Vagabond is a good deal more sprightly than the 65 horse version, but when you combine short strips and obstacles, the extra horses are worth every penny !
Also, as mentioned by WKW, the Rans S6 is worth considering. The S6-116 is 912 powered and fuel-efficient, and has a decent cruise. However, It's an SEP, and not a Microlight.
£15 k will buy you a Jodel, get it spent !
Best of luck.
TTH

[ecosse]

While not one of your vintage types, a Rans S6 would fulfil a lot of your other criteria. They are good load lifters and are happy (in fact prefer) to operate on MOGAS. They are good short field machines and you have a choice of flavours. You could go for an S6-ESD (microlight) with a Rotax 912 engine. This would do all you require, without the need to convert to NPPL (SSEA). There are nose and tail wheel versions. I gather that Randy Schlitter, the designer and manufacturer, is over 6’ 5” tall and designed the aircraft to fit his frame.

You might also like to look at Jodels, although they may be more limited on the height consideration. They are nice aircraft and a bit quicker than the Rans, they do prefer AVGAS. Like the Rans they will need hangerage being a wood / fabric airframe.

Happy hunting on AFORS etc.

Thanks for the replays guys,

RE.Rans, looks like a nice first time go anywhere aircraft, but reminds me of those r/c trainer aircraft i used to have, then one day a guy showed up with a 1/4 scale blue and white Cub and i thought "now thats an aircraft"

thats when my love affair for old vintage style craft started. The same old guy had hundreds of scratch built champs,t-craft,minors,moths etc, which is why i love these types of craft, nothing against the RANS I know they are great aircraft, but not my dream plane, I've had a few model cubs etc to, and then suddenly realised i could actually afford one.

Ok now after having the most amazing flight time (thanks ali) in an X-Air I have completely re considered this whole question.

I found this aircraft more fun than i could ever have imagined, suddenly I realised that i could have just as much fun in something like this as any other A/C and its exactly what i loved about microlights to start with, ie cheap and fun.

sure i like the 50k planes available too but what i loved was to be able to pull something out of a trailer or hangar (if i get a low wing as there isn't much room for high wings left in the hangar) fire it up and go have some fun, which i am sure an s6 will do as well as a cub or similar

That being said i would love an old vintage plane like the types mentioned and one day i'm sure i will but for now i'm gonna get myself a ride in a rans s6 and see how that goes, it does tick all the boxes, seat loading is 95kg i believe and if I've had a heavy christmas i can still fly legal.

whiskey-kilo-wanderer i should have listened too you in the first place

after i gain my wings i can spend some time practicing and go from there.

Kenny

[Genghis the Engineer]

Meself, I'd rather own a Skyranger (much more refined) or an X'Air (cheaper, and better handling) than an S6. Read this June's AAIB bulletin: Air Accidents Investigation: June 2014

Or an Easy Raider, is one of the nicest flying aeroplanes ever built - 10 times nicer than the X'Air (and I love the X'Air !), although they don't come up very often, and are rather cramped in the back seat. Also pretty much a scaled down super-cub, which is a good thing

Or look at the AX3 - very cheap, very easy to fly, basically an older cheaper cousin of the X'Air, but just about the lowest high-wing ever built!

You Tube

G

[ecosse]

safety is paramount i def want a safe easy to fly plane, maybe i should re think the rans, sky ranger is ok but a lot more expensive,

now you've got me thinking..

ok after reading the AAIB reports on the rans, it would appear to me that pilot error played a massive part in both accidents, there is no evidence of any blame on the aircraft?

To put it bluntly One was an older guy who's eye site and hearing may not be 100% that coupled with not so quick reaction times may have played a big part in the accident?

The other was a pilot who again was older ish (I'm gonna get it here i can feel it) who was reported to have been slow too progress through his training and appeared to have had no real conversion training etc

Thats the way i read it anyway, and it can not blamed on the rans in my view

Please don't be to sore on me its just my opinion

[Genghis the Engineer]

Except - there are plenty of mediocre pilots flying other types, who are not stalling them on finals. In my opinion, the S6 has characteristics that make it a bit less tolerant of mistakes than most others - particularly at low speed, as indicated by quite a lot of accidents over the years.

Those accidents aren't happening, that I can see, in X'Airs and Skyrangers.

G

[mikehallam]

Dear Genghis,

Them Thar Hills actually said the Rans S6-116, which has a completely different wing. So your advice is missing some essential ingredients !

Its handling in flight, take-off and particularly landing makes it much more responsive and it is an enjoyable roomy a/c.

IMHO nicer for the pilot to sit in (being a big bloke) than the otherwise sensible SkyRanger.

mike hallam.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Unfortunately "light and responsive" and "tendency to stall easily" are remarkably close to the same thing.

G

[mikehallam]

Dear Genghis,

I'll have one more try at being objective.

I wrote 'responsive' and not the other three pejorative words you have quoted.

If you have personal experience of the -116 model then you may have a hands on opinion. Lumping it in with the 5 ft. greater wingspan generic S6 range because you read some reports is misleading to the O.P.

One analysis of the accidents of this very popular(& with many in use) light 'plane finds the causes are elsewhere.

Regards,

mike hallam.

[aligee]

Hi Kenny

Was a pleasure to fly with you the other day.It's brill to see you so fired up and serious about buying an aircraft.what you have achieved over the past few weeks is nothing short of remarkable.i know you will succeed in getting your licence soon ,shortly followed by an aircraft.if I can help out in any way just shout out I look forward to taking you up again and hopefully that engine doesn't give you as many engine failures again.five simulated failures in one flight was a bit much.

[Maoraigh1]

Rent if possible for some hours before buying. (Rent anything - not what you think you'll buy. Decide what flying you enjoy doing.)
I fly a Group owned Jodel DR1050. £50 per month and £60 per tach hour, + landing fees. Hangar included. Making a good profit for engine and refurbishment at that price.
Advantages are cockpit view, speed (115 Kt cruise for 4 hours) and reasonable cross-wind and turbulence ability. It may soon be night capable, as it used to be.
Disadvantages are I want 500m or very near, with no obstructions, for safe take-off, landing needs getting used to, and it's cold in winter.
Consider speed with a headwind. Do short strips mean more than long distance cruising? Do you want to fly in turbulence?
If looking at accident records, take account of the type of accident. Runway excursion with no injury, nosewheel bent, or more serious accident.
(I was horriied that one type I considered buying had most of its accidents fatal)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by mikehallam

Dear Genghis,

I'll have one more try at being objective.

I wrote 'responsive' and not the other three pejorative words you have quoted.

If you have personal experience of the -116 model then you may have a hands on opinion. Lumping it in with the 5 ft. greater wingspan generic S6 range because you read some reports is misleading to the O.P.

One analysis of the accidents of this very popular(& with many in use) light 'plane finds the causes are elsewhere.

Regards,

mike hallam.

Mike,

I took a bit of time to review the records I have access to about Rans S6 aeroplanes before replying.

Yes, I take your point and missed the distinction that you were separating out Rans S6 models.

Whilst the S6-116 remains a relatively old design, it's clear when I look at it that the problematic low speed S6 accidents are all to ES/ESD models of the S6, and not to the -116 whose track record is pretty flawless.

I stand educated.

G

[ecosse]

Hi Kenny

Was a pleasure to fly with you the other day.It's brill to see you so fired up and serious about buying an aircraft.what you have achieved over the past few weeks is nothing short of remarkable.i know you will succeed in getting your licence soon ,shortly followed by an aircraft.if I can help out in any way just shout out I look forward to taking you up again and hopefully that engine doesn't give you as many engine failures again.five simulated failures in one flight was a bit much.

The pleasure was all mine Ali, I had the best ever flying to date, was a real great experience and can't wait to get back up there with you again, the x-air is a great machine not to be under estimated, thanks again.

so this rans-116 how do we find one of these? whats the difference ? I've seen an s6 xl for sale is this the one i'm looking for or not?

any advice appreciated

Kenny