Rating on 6 seater single engine
Do heed the requirements of FCL.710 though:
Which means that, for example, if you flew a C152 for your PPL course, then before you fly a C172, PA28-140 etc., you are required to undertake familiarisation training (or difference training if the variant has certain specific features). So you may not just hop in to a new variant and fly it without at least some familiarisation training.
FCL.710 Class and type ratings – variants
(a) In order to extend his/her privileges to another variant of aeroplane within one class or type rating, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training.
In the case of variants within a type rating, the differences or familiarisation training shall include the relevant elements defined in the operational suitability data established in accordance with Part-21.
(b) If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences training, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single engine piston and TMG class ratings.
(c) The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent record and signed by the instructor as appropriate.
(a) In order to extend his/her privileges to another variant of aeroplane within one class or type rating, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training.
In the case of variants within a type rating, the differences or familiarisation training shall include the relevant elements defined in the operational suitability data established in accordance with Part-21.
(b) If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences training, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single engine piston and TMG class ratings.
(c) The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent record and signed by the instructor as appropriate.
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Maybe we're splitting hairs here, but familiarisation can be self-study (i.e. read the POH) or other pilot. Does not need to be an instructor. So you can go from a C152 to a C172 or PA28.
As can be read under Definitions in LASORS:
http://books.google.com/books?id=exX...aining&f=false
As can be read under Definitions in LASORS:
http://books.google.com/books?id=exX...aining&f=false
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 26th Aug 2014 at 08:35.
True, and of course anybody flying a single seater for the first time has no choice in the matter.
But, from personal experience, I normally find I need to spend 2-4 times as long reading my way into a single seater (or aeroplane for which there's no instructor available). There's also plenty of anecdotal evidence of problems caused by PPLs who aren't instructors doing checkouts.
Plus, frankly Adam, you are trying to tell a new (not even that yet) PPL that he should follow gash substandard practices that will significantly increase his chances of an accident.
Basic aeronautical realities are:-
(1) A new PPL would be most sensible to get some reasonable experience before trying to fly something significantly bigger than they've learned in, particularly with more than a couple of passengers.
(2) Nobody but an idiot would allow such a pilot to fly such an aeroplane without training on type. Insurers are likely to insist upon it. A sensible PPL will make quite sure that he gets that training.
(3) Differences training is required for the list already posted (by you Adam). This is not optional.
G
But, from personal experience, I normally find I need to spend 2-4 times as long reading my way into a single seater (or aeroplane for which there's no instructor available). There's also plenty of anecdotal evidence of problems caused by PPLs who aren't instructors doing checkouts.
Plus, frankly Adam, you are trying to tell a new (not even that yet) PPL that he should follow gash substandard practices that will significantly increase his chances of an accident.
Basic aeronautical realities are:-
(1) A new PPL would be most sensible to get some reasonable experience before trying to fly something significantly bigger than they've learned in, particularly with more than a couple of passengers.
(2) Nobody but an idiot would allow such a pilot to fly such an aeroplane without training on type. Insurers are likely to insist upon it. A sensible PPL will make quite sure that he gets that training.
(3) Differences training is required for the list already posted (by you Adam). This is not optional.
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 26th Aug 2014 at 10:30.
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Really, this is just arguing semantics. As is well- documented,70 years ago, it was common practice for a young lady to jump into a massively powerful single taildragger, read the Pilot's notes and set off on a delivery......then it might be a twin, a four-engined bomber or even , possibly an open-cockpit bi-plane.
The vast majority of these self -taught heroines and heroes survived the war unscathed!
It has also to be remembered that some of these machines had less than benign handling -characteristics.
I am certainly not advocating this as an ideal route to learning to fly a specific type. It would be a real fool who, with very limited experience, ignores the pool of wisdom available and sets off to make all the mistakes for himself. Such fools do exist....well, for a short while,anyway
I would be very wary of stepping into a multi-seat aircraft with a newly qualified, inexperienced pilot..,, I'm sure there would be a marked difference in handling 6-up compared with solo It is also unfair on both the pax and the pilot to attempt this until the experience is there.
just my opinion, of course.
The vast majority of these self -taught heroines and heroes survived the war unscathed!
It has also to be remembered that some of these machines had less than benign handling -characteristics.
I am certainly not advocating this as an ideal route to learning to fly a specific type. It would be a real fool who, with very limited experience, ignores the pool of wisdom available and sets off to make all the mistakes for himself. Such fools do exist....well, for a short while,anyway
I would be very wary of stepping into a multi-seat aircraft with a newly qualified, inexperienced pilot..,, I'm sure there would be a marked difference in handling 6-up compared with solo It is also unfair on both the pax and the pilot to attempt this until the experience is there.
just my opinion, of course.
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thanks for the advice on it all.
I am not intending to get in a 6 seater straight from doing my PPL and going on some crazy flight with 5 others not having done it before! That would be rather silly.
But I currently have about 35 hours solo in a PA28 and then about 50 dual in a combination of a PA28 and Citabria.
the reason i have so much and havent done my PPL yet is cause I started it abroad with a non EASA registered company and due to other circumstances I had to leave and come back to the UK when I was 90% of the way to finishing. So I now I have jsut found out that I need to redo 10 hours under supervision solo and 25 hours with an instructor as part of the EASA PPL course as my non-EASA hours do not apply for EASA PPL. Though my hours will all be taken into account at the end.
So I am just looking at other planes I can fly besides a PAS28 or C172 that will be a bit more interesting as I have to redo 25 hours and just thought that a 6 seater single would be a good start as I can get some of my hours under supervision/ with an instructor in that type of plane and then I would have some experience in it for the future...
I am not intending to get in a 6 seater straight from doing my PPL and going on some crazy flight with 5 others not having done it before! That would be rather silly.
But I currently have about 35 hours solo in a PA28 and then about 50 dual in a combination of a PA28 and Citabria.
the reason i have so much and havent done my PPL yet is cause I started it abroad with a non EASA registered company and due to other circumstances I had to leave and come back to the UK when I was 90% of the way to finishing. So I now I have jsut found out that I need to redo 10 hours under supervision solo and 25 hours with an instructor as part of the EASA PPL course as my non-EASA hours do not apply for EASA PPL. Though my hours will all be taken into account at the end.
So I am just looking at other planes I can fly besides a PAS28 or C172 that will be a bit more interesting as I have to redo 25 hours and just thought that a 6 seater single would be a good start as I can get some of my hours under supervision/ with an instructor in that type of plane and then I would have some experience in it for the future...
Steve - It's not semantics however that most ATA pilots were highly experienced, all were well supported and expected to fly only in a very narrow envelope, less than 1 in 100 was cleared to fly 4 - engine bombers, whilst about 1 in 7 died in accidents.
Raab - good attitude. Nothing Incidentally stops you doing your night qualification within those hours, nor tailwheel, glass cockpit.... You can probably clock up quite a lot of value to you later. Just "big" may not be the best place to learn useful stuff in the short term.
G
Raab - good attitude. Nothing Incidentally stops you doing your night qualification within those hours, nor tailwheel, glass cockpit.... You can probably clock up quite a lot of value to you later. Just "big" may not be the best place to learn useful stuff in the short term.
G
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Yes, the ferry pilots were an exceptional group! The skill to go from one plane to the next is gained through doing it, in a well trained and supervised environment.
It's great that Raab has time in the PA-28 and Citabria, a good combination for skills development! Raab, you'll find that the larger aircraft are easier in some respects, like not so gust reactive as the Citabria, but on the other hand, that added inertia makes it more difficult to correct things when they start to go wrong.
But importantly, as you mentioned, you'll want some more experience in general, and on the larger type, before you start carrying lots of people. Letting alone the simple responsibility for the people, they can be a distraction to you while you're flying, or even a problem when they yell "Hey whats' that!" as you're just lifting off.
In Canada, we're a little less government regulated when it comes to being type trained, a pilot can pretty well go from one type to the next within a class, and self train if they like, but the insurance company will still take quite an interest. It is likely them who require training, and supervised time on type, based upon the pilot's experience, and that's a good thing.
It's great that Raab has time in the PA-28 and Citabria, a good combination for skills development! Raab, you'll find that the larger aircraft are easier in some respects, like not so gust reactive as the Citabria, but on the other hand, that added inertia makes it more difficult to correct things when they start to go wrong.
But importantly, as you mentioned, you'll want some more experience in general, and on the larger type, before you start carrying lots of people. Letting alone the simple responsibility for the people, they can be a distraction to you while you're flying, or even a problem when they yell "Hey whats' that!" as you're just lifting off.
In Canada, we're a little less government regulated when it comes to being type trained, a pilot can pretty well go from one type to the next within a class, and self train if they like, but the insurance company will still take quite an interest. It is likely them who require training, and supervised time on type, based upon the pilot's experience, and that's a good thing.
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Raab some good advice here as always and very sensible comments form you.
Aside from the regulations, to be realistic and to sum up, so far as the real world is concerned you will almost certainly need some combination of VP prop., glass and under carriage.
You will also find the step up reasonably challenging so soon after your PPL - think in terms of 10 to 30 hours to be comfortable. On the basis that you will be hiring I would be surprised if you would complete the difference training and club / group approval on type in less than 15 hours.
There will porbably be some insurance loading as well.
If you are serious about a six seater and there happens to be any twins around you might consider them as an aletrnative. I think it is still 25 hours P1 time before you can do your multi but you might get your multi done in not a lot more than the minimium. (5 hours I think). The training will make you a much better pilot and will open up more options.
Like four seaters, six seats rarely mean you can carry six adults with reasonable amounts of fuel whereas in something like an Aztec you can load up six full size adults, full tanks and head down to Nice.
Aside from the regulations, to be realistic and to sum up, so far as the real world is concerned you will almost certainly need some combination of VP prop., glass and under carriage.
You will also find the step up reasonably challenging so soon after your PPL - think in terms of 10 to 30 hours to be comfortable. On the basis that you will be hiring I would be surprised if you would complete the difference training and club / group approval on type in less than 15 hours.
There will porbably be some insurance loading as well.
If you are serious about a six seater and there happens to be any twins around you might consider them as an aletrnative. I think it is still 25 hours P1 time before you can do your multi but you might get your multi done in not a lot more than the minimium. (5 hours I think). The training will make you a much better pilot and will open up more options.
Like four seaters, six seats rarely mean you can carry six adults with reasonable amounts of fuel whereas in something like an Aztec you can load up six full size adults, full tanks and head down to Nice.
If you are serious about a six seater and there happens to be any twins around you might consider them as an aletrnative. I think it is still 25 hours P1 time before you can do your multi but you might get your multi done in not a lot more than the minimium. (5 hours I think).
