Aircraft Owner Operating Costs?
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Aircraft Owner Operating Costs?
Im currently hiring aircraft from various clubs and schools in the Midlands, UK, and am looking for cheaper ways of getting my hours to the requirement for the CPL.
There is a possibility of buying an aircraft (most likely a C172 or PA28), keeping it for a couple of years whilst I do my hour building and then flogging it when Im done with it. Ive never owned before and am looking for any guidance before taking the plunge.
What costs should I factor in on top of buying the a/c outright? Does anybody have a list of recent costs of ownership, say for the last couple of years, that would help to estimate what outlay I should plan for (and whether its actually cost-beneficial for me to buy instead of rent)?
Thanks!
There is a possibility of buying an aircraft (most likely a C172 or PA28), keeping it for a couple of years whilst I do my hour building and then flogging it when Im done with it. Ive never owned before and am looking for any guidance before taking the plunge.
What costs should I factor in on top of buying the a/c outright? Does anybody have a list of recent costs of ownership, say for the last couple of years, that would help to estimate what outlay I should plan for (and whether its actually cost-beneficial for me to buy instead of rent)?
Thanks!
This is far too complex to answer from my point of view as all circumstances are different. My present outlay has been £22.5K purchase, £70K refurbish. Things to take into account:
1. Purchase price
2. Insurance
3. Basic servicing costs
4. Hourly running costs.
5. Admin fees: Clubs, CAA etc.
6. Annual costs (Permit of C of A), radios, fatigue meter (if you have one) etc.
7. Hangarage or parking.
8. Landing fees.
etc etc
It all depends of what you have, what you do with it etc. Have a look at other threads on this forum. Have a word with the LAA.
Incidently, my basic costs (not incl fixed) are in excess of £200 per hr. As they say, if it floats, flies or f**ks, then rent it!
1. Purchase price
2. Insurance
3. Basic servicing costs
4. Hourly running costs.
5. Admin fees: Clubs, CAA etc.
6. Annual costs (Permit of C of A), radios, fatigue meter (if you have one) etc.
7. Hangarage or parking.
8. Landing fees.
etc etc
It all depends of what you have, what you do with it etc. Have a look at other threads on this forum. Have a word with the LAA.
Incidently, my basic costs (not incl fixed) are in excess of £200 per hr. As they say, if it floats, flies or f**ks, then rent it!
Clearedtakeoff
I've been down both routes. Go for LAA Permit. Don't go for EASA certification and all the hideous expense unless money is no object and even then I'd still plump for LAA Permit,
With two others I run a two seat STOL a/c at an hourly cost all in of about £45 -50 pounds per hour inc. fuel. We are on an outside tiedown. Fuel burn about 13 liters per hour at cruise of 80kts.
You can buy a Permit a/c for as little as 12K or less. Budget for 15 - 20K and you'll get a much wider choice.
I've been down both routes. Go for LAA Permit. Don't go for EASA certification and all the hideous expense unless money is no object and even then I'd still plump for LAA Permit,
With two others I run a two seat STOL a/c at an hourly cost all in of about £45 -50 pounds per hour inc. fuel. We are on an outside tiedown. Fuel burn about 13 liters per hour at cruise of 80kts.
You can buy a Permit a/c for as little as 12K or less. Budget for 15 - 20K and you'll get a much wider choice.
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Assume a C172 and that you'll get back your purchase price less engine depreciation when you sell it.
Also assume you do 100 hours a year (quite a lot if you're also in full-time employment with a family)
Hangarage, an annual and 2 x 50 hour checks, insurance and engine depreciation are the thick end of £9k, that's £90 per hour. fuel in a C172 is 30 lit an hour, that's £60.
That's £150 an hour. Most folk struggle to do 50 hours a year, that's £180 plus fuel or £240 per hour. As you say, if it flies, floats......
The Odd One
Also assume you do 100 hours a year (quite a lot if you're also in full-time employment with a family)
Hangarage, an annual and 2 x 50 hour checks, insurance and engine depreciation are the thick end of £9k, that's £90 per hour. fuel in a C172 is 30 lit an hour, that's £60.
That's £150 an hour. Most folk struggle to do 50 hours a year, that's £180 plus fuel or £240 per hour. As you say, if it flies, floats......
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It's the unexpected costs that will get you.
e.g. If a mag drops out on a hired plane on power checks you taxy back, shut it down and report to the owner. If you own it you reach for the already depleted chequebook...
Having said that, with a busy life I find that owning makes me find time to fly - after all, it is costing me money to sit there. I'm not sure I'd still be flying if I had gone down the hire route.
For me it was purchase £12k but then around £50k shortly thereafter on refurbishing, unexpected engine rebuild, incompetent mechanic taking it apart and unable to put back together (I kid you not)
e.g. If a mag drops out on a hired plane on power checks you taxy back, shut it down and report to the owner. If you own it you reach for the already depleted chequebook...
Having said that, with a busy life I find that owning makes me find time to fly - after all, it is costing me money to sit there. I'm not sure I'd still be flying if I had gone down the hire route.
For me it was purchase £12k but then around £50k shortly thereafter on refurbishing, unexpected engine rebuild, incompetent mechanic taking it apart and unable to put back together (I kid you not)
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The cheapest way of getting good availability and minimising cost is with a group-owned syndicate. A permit aircraft will cut the costs even further especially if you're willing to use your own time with things like 50 hour checks.
That way you share the cost of hangarage, insurance, annual inspections etc which form a large chunk of overall operating costs.
Have a check on the notice boards at local airfields and ask around. There are often a lot of shares going that you don't see advertised elsewhere.
That way you share the cost of hangarage, insurance, annual inspections etc which form a large chunk of overall operating costs.
Have a check on the notice boards at local airfields and ask around. There are often a lot of shares going that you don't see advertised elsewhere.
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Calculating the TCO is not that easy done, as you have to decide how to treat certain things in calculation. For example, you could build surplus funds for OH every month, or you depreciate and distribute the purchase price over a certain period. In first case you have the funds saved when OH comes, in second case a plane with book value zero.
Comparing charter with own plane is also not that easy, as it is not 1:1 match. A charter plane is operated commercially with no on condition parts, a thing you most probably will do when operating your own plane. Assume cost savings is not the big issue for an own plane, longterm cost differences are not that tremendous.
The big decision is: do you WANT your own plane? This is feeling and weighting the balance between always availability and labor to spend as well. If you are willing to spent hours caring for the plane, buy one. If you are bored from caring, don't.
From calculation the crucial point is how many hours a years are you going to fly? If you do 50h I wouldn't recommend, 100h is fine, more an own plane plays it's availability card.
I was wondering about the total costs and started with an excel sheet since I bought my current plane.
Comparing charter with own plane is also not that easy, as it is not 1:1 match. A charter plane is operated commercially with no on condition parts, a thing you most probably will do when operating your own plane. Assume cost savings is not the big issue for an own plane, longterm cost differences are not that tremendous.
The big decision is: do you WANT your own plane? This is feeling and weighting the balance between always availability and labor to spend as well. If you are willing to spent hours caring for the plane, buy one. If you are bored from caring, don't.
From calculation the crucial point is how many hours a years are you going to fly? If you do 50h I wouldn't recommend, 100h is fine, more an own plane plays it's availability card.
I was wondering about the total costs and started with an excel sheet since I bought my current plane.
If your location is still N Yorkshire then you don't have to look far for a 172 at £70 per tacho hr or an Archer at £80 per tacho hr. No initial outlay. No hangarage, maintenance costs or home landing fees. £65 per month standing charge covers both aircraft.
If you are hour building, that (tacho) cost can constitute a significant saving.
Wiping out the monthly in short order.
There's also the Day VFR requirement with a Permit aircraft which, with our weather, you might find limiting. I do.
If you are hour building, that (tacho) cost can constitute a significant saving.
Wiping out the monthly in short order.
There's also the Day VFR requirement with a Permit aircraft which, with our weather, you might find limiting. I do.
Last edited by Flyingmac; 7th Aug 2014 at 08:23.
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Allow between £7,000 and £10,000 a year to run it.
That will include hangerage, T/O and Landing fees at the airfield you keep it, club membership, fuel, insurance and small maintenance jobs.
Not all are profitable (I lost £20,000 in three years when I sold my last one), but I agree that best purchase is Cessna or PA which will keep value.
Repair to my prop at one time came to £7,000.
That's 10 years ago.
That will include hangerage, T/O and Landing fees at the airfield you keep it, club membership, fuel, insurance and small maintenance jobs.
Not all are profitable (I lost £20,000 in three years when I sold my last one), but I agree that best purchase is Cessna or PA which will keep value.
Repair to my prop at one time came to £7,000.
That's 10 years ago.
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Flying on a Rotax on mogas will allow to offset the deprecation cost of a newer airplane, compared to running on avgas.
With 100 hours/year @ 20 liters/hour for 2 euro/liter, or 30 liters/hours for 3 euro/liter, that's a saving of 5000 euro/year on fuel. You get a different type of aircraft, but if money is a concern, a small rotax 912 aircraft can keep the running costs down. If you buy for 50k euro, and fly for 10 years, the fuel savings paid for the aircraft. Anything you get for it when selling is then pure profit.
Many run mogas as well on the lyco/conti engines, but there's always the increased risk of vapor locks. The STCs all specify a temp and alt limit.
So assuming a 50k purchase price for a fairly modern 2 seater rotax, 20 liters/hour mogas at 2 euro, and 100 hours, the cost picture will be something like:
variable cost:
fuel: 4k
engine fund: 2k
fixed cost:
hangar: between 0 and 5k (depending on location), say 2k
maintenance: 3k (everything except engine)
insurance: 2k
cost of capital 5% of 50k = 2.5k
So that's about 6k + 9.5k = 15.5k/year, or 155 euro/hour
Renting is cheaper, but now you're the owner (with all benefits + risks).
When flying more than 100 hours it's financially more wise to own, and when flying less you really have to want to have your own plane, because renting will be a lot cheaper. At 50 hours/year you pay 250 euro/hour. At 150 hours/year you pay 123 euro/hour.
Deprecation is not taken into account here...
With 100 hours/year @ 20 liters/hour for 2 euro/liter, or 30 liters/hours for 3 euro/liter, that's a saving of 5000 euro/year on fuel. You get a different type of aircraft, but if money is a concern, a small rotax 912 aircraft can keep the running costs down. If you buy for 50k euro, and fly for 10 years, the fuel savings paid for the aircraft. Anything you get for it when selling is then pure profit.
Many run mogas as well on the lyco/conti engines, but there's always the increased risk of vapor locks. The STCs all specify a temp and alt limit.
So assuming a 50k purchase price for a fairly modern 2 seater rotax, 20 liters/hour mogas at 2 euro, and 100 hours, the cost picture will be something like:
variable cost:
fuel: 4k
engine fund: 2k
fixed cost:
hangar: between 0 and 5k (depending on location), say 2k
maintenance: 3k (everything except engine)
insurance: 2k
cost of capital 5% of 50k = 2.5k
So that's about 6k + 9.5k = 15.5k/year, or 155 euro/hour
Renting is cheaper, but now you're the owner (with all benefits + risks).
When flying more than 100 hours it's financially more wise to own, and when flying less you really have to want to have your own plane, because renting will be a lot cheaper. At 50 hours/year you pay 250 euro/hour. At 150 hours/year you pay 123 euro/hour.
Deprecation is not taken into account here...
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I am not paying anywhere near those costs for an LAA permit aircraft.
I have a 2-seater and do around 50 hours per annum. My breakdown of costs are as follows:
Purchase price £20k (the price seems to stay around that mark so likely to get £18k-£20k when I eventually want to sell).
Site Fees (landing fees included) are £95 per month.
Insurance £735 per annum which is third party, passenger and hull.
I use 13litres of Mogas per hour and a complete engine overhaul will cost £2.5k (Jabiru Engine). Engine TBO is 1000 hours. I have 500 hours to go.
My permit renewal each year costs £270 (LAA fees and inspector).
The 50 hour service (I do myself) costs £89 in materials.
Yes, there could be unexpected bills of which I did have one of 4 new cylinder heads and that was £1100 for parts (fitted by myself).
An LAA permit aircraft can be used for hour building.
So basically my annual cost based on 50 hours with no unexpected bills are £2790. That's including a £5 per hour engine fund (I have 500 hours left and it will cost £2.5k when I need a complete overhaul).
If I was to hire the club Cessna then it would cost me £5600 per annum to do the same number of hours and I wouldn't have the flexibility I have now.
Obviously unexpected bills can come but the worst case scenario would be a new engine which can be had for around £6k. Everything else is fairly cheap to maintain.
I have a 2-seater and do around 50 hours per annum. My breakdown of costs are as follows:
Purchase price £20k (the price seems to stay around that mark so likely to get £18k-£20k when I eventually want to sell).
Site Fees (landing fees included) are £95 per month.
Insurance £735 per annum which is third party, passenger and hull.
I use 13litres of Mogas per hour and a complete engine overhaul will cost £2.5k (Jabiru Engine). Engine TBO is 1000 hours. I have 500 hours to go.
My permit renewal each year costs £270 (LAA fees and inspector).
The 50 hour service (I do myself) costs £89 in materials.
Yes, there could be unexpected bills of which I did have one of 4 new cylinder heads and that was £1100 for parts (fitted by myself).
An LAA permit aircraft can be used for hour building.
So basically my annual cost based on 50 hours with no unexpected bills are £2790. That's including a £5 per hour engine fund (I have 500 hours left and it will cost £2.5k when I need a complete overhaul).
If I was to hire the club Cessna then it would cost me £5600 per annum to do the same number of hours and I wouldn't have the flexibility I have now.
Obviously unexpected bills can come but the worst case scenario would be a new engine which can be had for around £6k. Everything else is fairly cheap to maintain.
What are MLA hours ?
Someone made the point about limitations of use on Permit a/c.
Not for much longer. We expect to leave VFR/daytime behind and get approval for night/IFR very shortly.
Pirke
Our per hour costs are one third of those you quote
Someone made the point about limitations of use on Permit a/c.
Not for much longer. We expect to leave VFR/daytime behind and get approval for night/IFR very shortly.
Pirke
Our per hour costs are one third of those you quote
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MLA = microlight airplane
How can the hourly rate be 1/3 of my previous calculation?
Rotax 912, 20 liters/hour at 2 euro/liter. Those are the actual prices here at the moment. This comes down to 40 euro/hour for fuel. If you fly slow, you can manage 15 liters/hour, saving another 10 euro/hour, but that's about it...
Engine fund: 20k engine / 1500 hours = 13.33 euro/hour. You can skip on the engine fund, but one way or another you're gonna pay 20k for a new engine after 1500 hours.
Add the yearly fixed costs on top of that, divided by amount of hours you fly. That's the real hourly rate compared to renting.
So 9.5k yearly divided by 100 hours = 95 euro/hour for the fixed costs, plus the 55 euro/hour for the variable cost = a total of 150 euro / hour.
The fixed cost can be higher or lower depending on hangar fees. Tiedown is cheap, but will require some extra maintenance costs. On popular fields the hangar prices may be as much as 500 euro/month.
Of course, if you calculate a fixed monthly fee, then you can exclude the fixed costs from the hourly rate. But in the end, the real hourly rate is "variable cost + (fixed cost / number of hours flown)".
How can the hourly rate be 1/3 of my previous calculation?
Rotax 912, 20 liters/hour at 2 euro/liter. Those are the actual prices here at the moment. This comes down to 40 euro/hour for fuel. If you fly slow, you can manage 15 liters/hour, saving another 10 euro/hour, but that's about it...
Engine fund: 20k engine / 1500 hours = 13.33 euro/hour. You can skip on the engine fund, but one way or another you're gonna pay 20k for a new engine after 1500 hours.
Add the yearly fixed costs on top of that, divided by amount of hours you fly. That's the real hourly rate compared to renting.
So 9.5k yearly divided by 100 hours = 95 euro/hour for the fixed costs, plus the 55 euro/hour for the variable cost = a total of 150 euro / hour.
The fixed cost can be higher or lower depending on hangar fees. Tiedown is cheap, but will require some extra maintenance costs. On popular fields the hangar prices may be as much as 500 euro/month.
Of course, if you calculate a fixed monthly fee, then you can exclude the fixed costs from the hourly rate. But in the end, the real hourly rate is "variable cost + (fixed cost / number of hours flown)".
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"If you think an LAA aircraft cost one third of a C of A aircraft that will fly the same mission you have a screw loose, it will be cheaper but not by two thirds. "
If the mission is hour building I agree you do have a screw loose if you only save 2/3, you could save far more than that if you fly a single seater.
You can run a traditional LAA single seat for around £2.5k per year. Cost price around £8k, value after two years, £8k
You can run a Rotax powered machine for £4k a year for 75 hours all in costs - I have been doing something similar for the last 8 years. If you go for a Europa you would pay about £25k, value after two years, £25k
Equivalent for C of A numbers anyone?
Rod1
If the mission is hour building I agree you do have a screw loose if you only save 2/3, you could save far more than that if you fly a single seater.
You can run a traditional LAA single seat for around £2.5k per year. Cost price around £8k, value after two years, £8k
You can run a Rotax powered machine for £4k a year for 75 hours all in costs - I have been doing something similar for the last 8 years. If you go for a Europa you would pay about £25k, value after two years, £25k
Equivalent for C of A numbers anyone?
Rod1
A & C
If you're going to debate on an open forum, don't be abusive ! All my screws are greased and wire locked, so no problem there.
The going rate for hiring a club single seems to be anywhere from £150 - 200 per hour.
I can hardly even guess at a rate for group owned singles of the same type as a club. It depends naturally on how many in the group and where you're based but, I imagine a group member will pay at least about £120 the a/c being a PA28/C172 or suchlike.
I fly a Permit STOL a/c which does everything that the a/c mentioned above do but, a little slower. The costs are shared three ways. The costs include fuel (mogas) Tiedown, insurance, maintenance, Permit renewal, engine fund, fuel costs by car to and from the airfield (120 mile round trip).
Without giving you chapter and verse on the breakdown of costs - I can, nothing is hidden, I fly for about £50 per hour. That's it.
And that is why there is a steady migration from certified a/c to Permit.
If you're going to debate on an open forum, don't be abusive ! All my screws are greased and wire locked, so no problem there.
The going rate for hiring a club single seems to be anywhere from £150 - 200 per hour.
I can hardly even guess at a rate for group owned singles of the same type as a club. It depends naturally on how many in the group and where you're based but, I imagine a group member will pay at least about £120 the a/c being a PA28/C172 or suchlike.
I fly a Permit STOL a/c which does everything that the a/c mentioned above do but, a little slower. The costs are shared three ways. The costs include fuel (mogas) Tiedown, insurance, maintenance, Permit renewal, engine fund, fuel costs by car to and from the airfield (120 mile round trip).
Without giving you chapter and verse on the breakdown of costs - I can, nothing is hidden, I fly for about £50 per hour. That's it.
And that is why there is a steady migration from certified a/c to Permit.