Aircraft Owner Operating Costs?
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“How can the hourly rate be 1/3 of my previous calculation?”
Well lets look at some real uk numbers against yours;
You are paying £1.60 pl for fuel, I am paying £1.27 (based on today's prices)
You are burning 20lph on an std 912 80ph Rotax – that is mad. The Book figure for a 912 ULS 100hp is 18.5lph, my engine has averaged 17.8L over the last 300h.
1500 hours you are having a laugh – most Rotax engines get north of 2500h many to 3500 – no restriction on running on condition in the UK under the LAA. For hour building you will not have a significant impact on second hand value over a few years so engine fund is zero.
“plus the 55 euro/hour” really – my maintenance cost is running at an average of £472 per year all in (over 8 years).
“The fixed cost can be higher or lower depending on hangar fees”. - I pay £1k per year for my own hangar.
I think you will find the average UK LAA owner is paying much less than you are.
Rod1
Well lets look at some real uk numbers against yours;
You are paying £1.60 pl for fuel, I am paying £1.27 (based on today's prices)
You are burning 20lph on an std 912 80ph Rotax – that is mad. The Book figure for a 912 ULS 100hp is 18.5lph, my engine has averaged 17.8L over the last 300h.
1500 hours you are having a laugh – most Rotax engines get north of 2500h many to 3500 – no restriction on running on condition in the UK under the LAA. For hour building you will not have a significant impact on second hand value over a few years so engine fund is zero.
“plus the 55 euro/hour” really – my maintenance cost is running at an average of £472 per year all in (over 8 years).
“The fixed cost can be higher or lower depending on hangar fees”. - I pay £1k per year for my own hangar.
I think you will find the average UK LAA owner is paying much less than you are.
Rod1
For the sake of comparison. Throttled back to 4700/4800 in the cruise my 80hp guzzles 13 liters per hour average.
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For the sake of comparison. Throttled back to 4700/4800 in the cruise my 80hp guzzles 13 liters per hour average.
Throw away your outdated spamcans. Bring a smile to your bank managers face. Join the LAA !
Throw away your outdated spamcans. Bring a smile to your bank managers face. Join the LAA !
Oh, and in fairness, when not flying, it cuts your grass, and will dry your hair.
That should make the bank manager smile. Makes me
My err "hairdryer" will do 130kts at 18 litres/hour, has landed in a 35kt crosswind, and has flown in the Atlas mountains with an OAT of 42C. If you flew in it Maxred, you would certainly be smiling 
Join Date: Apr 2012
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And my all-metal EASA certified 2-place, Rotax powered, hairdryer manages 105-110 kt on 16 lph; gives me about 6 hours endurance; has a demonstrated cross-wind (POH figure) of 22kt; has flown from NZ to Australia and around Australia; and spends much of its life operating above 35C here in WA. LSAs and their relatives are not for every mission but a few actual facts help in making a fair comparison with more traditional alternatives.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Oooh, I do love the Lycosaurus verse permit hot ship discussions. As an LAA coach I have flown rather a lot of the LSA types and have yet to see one perform in the combinations of speed and fuel flows described by many owners. It tends to be one or the other.
Our training base operates a couple of PS28 LSA mind they have not lived up to expectations on pretty much anything. They are certainly very Gucci and modern But built from tissue paper due to the need to keep them light from both a certification standpoint and from the lack of power to push them along.
Notwithstanding this, I would probably buy one as personal run about if and when they get IFR approval. Just not a good sharoplane or trainer.
Our training base operates a couple of PS28 LSA mind they have not lived up to expectations on pretty much anything. They are certainly very Gucci and modern But built from tissue paper due to the need to keep them light from both a certification standpoint and from the lack of power to push them along.
Notwithstanding this, I would probably buy one as personal run about if and when they get IFR approval. Just not a good sharoplane or trainer.
Join Date: Mar 2014
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For the now typical sunshine sunday traffic pattern hopper with occasional 15min flights to the next coffee field a LSA is totally sufficient. Even long flights are possible - if you have a friend flying alongside with a certified plane taking all the luggage ... What keeps me from these light variants is: too light for me, not sufficient range, restrictions everywhere (the most fields I fly into are not allowed for the little ones).
When I talk to the fellow pilots and compare the figures, the only big difference is: their flying material is 40-50 year younger and they spend about 10-15% less money TCO per flight hour - unless like one of them flying about 800 hours a year in a Tecnam, but that is another story -> I keep my old Cessna.
When I talk to the fellow pilots and compare the figures, the only big difference is: their flying material is 40-50 year younger and they spend about 10-15% less money TCO per flight hour - unless like one of them flying about 800 hours a year in a Tecnam, but that is another story -> I keep my old Cessna.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Netherlands
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I'm not sure about the Dutch regulations of running a permit Rotax on condition. Certified Rotax engines are not allowed to run on condition here, I assumed that would also hold for permit, but assumptions are the mother of all f*ck ups, so I could be wrong on that one 
I don't own an aircraft yet, I'm still looking for one in a good state that matches my needs and budget. The fuel prices are higher in The Netherlands than almost everywhere else. Hangar fees also. The other costs (including maintenance) were based on information from many different people. Note that I don't have the time or skill to do all my own maintenance due to a busy job and family, so that'll increase the maintenance bill compared to your £500.
What if my assumption is correct and I can't run a permit Rotax on condition, but it's allowed in the UK. Could I keep a permit plane on G registry, and do maintenance here (probably mostly by a part M and some other letters I can't remember (F/G/?) who can sign off stuff). Or would I need to visit the UK every year for that?
I don't own an aircraft yet, I'm still looking for one in a good state that matches my needs and budget. The fuel prices are higher in The Netherlands than almost everywhere else. Hangar fees also. The other costs (including maintenance) were based on information from many different people. Note that I don't have the time or skill to do all my own maintenance due to a busy job and family, so that'll increase the maintenance bill compared to your £500.
What if my assumption is correct and I can't run a permit Rotax on condition, but it's allowed in the UK. Could I keep a permit plane on G registry, and do maintenance here (probably mostly by a part M and some other letters I can't remember (F/G/?) who can sign off stuff). Or would I need to visit the UK every year for that?
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Bose, I have no interest in fudging the figures - I fly both the P2002JF (which is a certified version of an LSA) and a range of GA aircraft regularly. The figures I've given are those I see routinely.
LSAs are not for every mission but I think the point being made by some posters is that if there's a discussion going, we can at least get the facts right.
The training experience I see varies widely: one school I know of here has been using P2002s for several years without incident. Another has had problems with Sportstars and nosewheels. I hesitate to draw any generalizations as the statistics are small. But there's a general recognition that GA pilots in LSAs are accident prone in the familiarization stages. I could elaborate but if you fly LSAs, you are probably quite aware of the traps.
By the way, I see the P2002JF is now NVFR approved but, frankly, I wouldn't regard any LSA as a great instrument platform. That said, I enjoy having a full panel in my own aircraft - habit I guess.
You can't have it both ways on the power/weight criticism: yes, they are leanly built but the typical 100 hp Rotax gives a sizeable performance gain over a similar power in a heavier C152 etc. That's noticable in cruise but, in my case, the really big difference is the climb performance in elevated ambient temperatures.
LSAs are not for every mission but I think the point being made by some posters is that if there's a discussion going, we can at least get the facts right.
The training experience I see varies widely: one school I know of here has been using P2002s for several years without incident. Another has had problems with Sportstars and nosewheels. I hesitate to draw any generalizations as the statistics are small. But there's a general recognition that GA pilots in LSAs are accident prone in the familiarization stages. I could elaborate but if you fly LSAs, you are probably quite aware of the traps.
By the way, I see the P2002JF is now NVFR approved but, frankly, I wouldn't regard any LSA as a great instrument platform. That said, I enjoy having a full panel in my own aircraft - habit I guess.
You can't have it both ways on the power/weight criticism: yes, they are leanly built but the typical 100 hp Rotax gives a sizeable performance gain over a similar power in a heavier C152 etc. That's noticable in cruise but, in my case, the really big difference is the climb performance in elevated ambient temperatures.
See my earlier post. I looked at all the new 'plastic' ultralights from Aquila to SportsStar. Though they are fun the fly they don't actually do much for me. I need an aeroplane to tour, IFR, to play with and for aerobatics. It also has to be special.
So I bought a Bulldog. Rugged, capable, fun, only downside is that it is not cheap to run! 40 litres per hour at 100 kts! Spares too are not always easy to find.
But horses for courses. I love it!
So I bought a Bulldog. Rugged, capable, fun, only downside is that it is not cheap to run! 40 litres per hour at 100 kts! Spares too are not always easy to find.
But horses for courses. I love it!
Join Date: Apr 2003
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“For the now typical sunshine sunday traffic pattern hopper with occasional 15min flights to the next coffee field a LSA is totally sufficient. Even long flights are possible - if you have a friend flying alongside with a certified plane taking all the luggage “
Odd – I just got back from a week touring France (visiting the RSA etc) 2 up with bags no problem. Been doing it for years. Generally fly 2 hour legs at around 130kn, but could extend that out to over 3 hours with reserves if required.
“I'm not sure about the Dutch regulations of running a permit Rotax on condition. Certified Rotax engines are not allowed to run on condition here, I assumed that would also hold for permit, but assumptions are the mother of all f*ck ups, so I could be wrong on that one.”
Under LAA rules you are.
“I don't own an aircraft yet,”
I would recommend you look for a share and learn the ropes before going it alone.
“What if my assumption is correct and I can't run a permit Rotax on condition, but it's allowed in the UK. Could I keep a permit plane on G registry, and do maintenance here (probably mostly by a part M and some other letters I can't remember (F/G/?) who can sign off stuff). Or would I need to visit the UK every year for that? “
Almost certainly not allowed to do this. TBO on Rotax 912 / 912s etc is 2000h.
If anybody in interested in real numbers you will notice that Mariner9 and I are quoting similar numbers. We have different aircraft but the same engine and similar performance. Both our actual aircraft have also been flight tested by Flyer and have appeared in the mag
Rod1
Odd – I just got back from a week touring France (visiting the RSA etc) 2 up with bags no problem. Been doing it for years. Generally fly 2 hour legs at around 130kn, but could extend that out to over 3 hours with reserves if required.
“I'm not sure about the Dutch regulations of running a permit Rotax on condition. Certified Rotax engines are not allowed to run on condition here, I assumed that would also hold for permit, but assumptions are the mother of all f*ck ups, so I could be wrong on that one.”
Under LAA rules you are.
“I don't own an aircraft yet,”
I would recommend you look for a share and learn the ropes before going it alone.
“What if my assumption is correct and I can't run a permit Rotax on condition, but it's allowed in the UK. Could I keep a permit plane on G registry, and do maintenance here (probably mostly by a part M and some other letters I can't remember (F/G/?) who can sign off stuff). Or would I need to visit the UK every year for that? “
Almost certainly not allowed to do this. TBO on Rotax 912 / 912s etc is 2000h.
If anybody in interested in real numbers you will notice that Mariner9 and I are quoting similar numbers. We have different aircraft but the same engine and similar performance. Both our actual aircraft have also been flight tested by Flyer and have appeared in the mag
Rod1
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As usual, much talking, few real numbers.
What about a short survey to collect figures?
Such as:
Aircraft (Type) # figures drawn from x hours total # flight hours per year # operational cost per hour (only direct related to flying) # total cost per hour (including replacements & upgrades) # depreciation purchase price over x years # bought new or used # registered
What about a short survey to collect figures?
Such as:
Aircraft (Type) # figures drawn from x hours total # flight hours per year # operational cost per hour (only direct related to flying) # total cost per hour (including replacements & upgrades) # depreciation purchase price over x years # bought new or used # registered
- C172 MOGAS # 250h TCO # 126h p.a. # 117 EUR/h # 166 EUR/h # 10y # used # D-E reg
Join Date: Apr 2003
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ChickenHouse - you have come onto the forum and posted that an entire class of aircraft cannot be used for long distance touring without a backup aircraft. I built my aircraft specifically to do long distance touring and have been doing it and posting about it for most of the last decade. Many other posters on this thread have been doing the same. I have zero interest in criticising your 172 - I am sure it is the panicle of light aircraft design, and does everything you want, but please give some of us some credit for actually owning and operating the aircraft you criticise.
Rod1
Rod1
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I cannot understand why there is an argument between owning a permit or CofA aircraft. As far as I see it, they do indentical things. I fly a Cessna 152 CofA and own a Jabiru. I can do identical things in both. The Jabiru is a bit more weight limited than the Cessna but for my purposes there is nothing I cannot do in the Jabiru that I can do in the Cessna.
The Cessna carries me at around 85-90kts and the Jabiru carries me between 90-95kts. My aircraft has been from the UK to Spain and back and has carried a passenger and luggage flying 3 hours without being overweight. The Cessna uses about 24litres of avgas per hour and the Jabiru 13litres of mogas per hour. The Cessna costs me around £112 per hour to rent and the Jabiru costs me around £55 per hour to own and fly. I have no wish to fly IMC or at Night so for me it is purely down to costs.
Without a doubt, a permit aircraft has a significant cost reduction over a CofA aircraft but if your mission is just to go from A to B (no matter what the distance) then there is really no difference between the two other than cost.
Obviously, if you want to have 4 or more seats then your choice of permit is very limited and , at the moment, if you need to fly IMC or at Night then permit is ruled out.
But I really don't see an argument other than that. There are many very capable permit aircrafts out there that, in a lot of cases, can out perform their CofA counterparts.
The Cessna carries me at around 85-90kts and the Jabiru carries me between 90-95kts. My aircraft has been from the UK to Spain and back and has carried a passenger and luggage flying 3 hours without being overweight. The Cessna uses about 24litres of avgas per hour and the Jabiru 13litres of mogas per hour. The Cessna costs me around £112 per hour to rent and the Jabiru costs me around £55 per hour to own and fly. I have no wish to fly IMC or at Night so for me it is purely down to costs.
Without a doubt, a permit aircraft has a significant cost reduction over a CofA aircraft but if your mission is just to go from A to B (no matter what the distance) then there is really no difference between the two other than cost.
Obviously, if you want to have 4 or more seats then your choice of permit is very limited and , at the moment, if you need to fly IMC or at Night then permit is ruled out.
But I really don't see an argument other than that. There are many very capable permit aircrafts out there that, in a lot of cases, can out perform their CofA counterparts.
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Does anybody else find the use of the word "mission" in connection with flying as a leisure pursuit a bit, well... ...pretentious?
Can't we just say "what I want it to do" or something like that?
Apology 1: Steevo25 I'm not singling you out particularly
Apology 2: I'm feeling grumpy cos the weather is pants and I haven't flown for a few days
Can't we just say "what I want it to do" or something like that?
Apology 1: Steevo25 I'm not singling you out particularly
Apology 2: I'm feeling grumpy cos the weather is pants and I haven't flown for a few days
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Following Rod's comment, I'd add that not all of us want to fly something that handles a bit like a white van. I've owned or co-owned a number of aircraft over the years, including a much-loved C172. But following a recent 172 touring mission...err..discretionary outing..I realized that I'd never go down that ownership path again - the smaller, more responsive, aircraft is just too much fun. The trade will be different for each individual and their needs, but obviously a number of us are quite deliberately choosing the new generation aircraft.
Maxred
My very pretty (to my eye) lawnmower come hairdryer, cruises at 80kts, fuel burn (mogas) up to 15liters per hour, will take off and land on what seems like half a postage stamp, carries 45lb of luggage, stowed with ease, stores 90 liters of fuel - enough for 6 hours to empty, has a crosswind limit of 24kts, has no discernible stall and is stressed to +6 -4.
I've flown almost forty different types so have a little experience of what different a/c have to offer. That's why I fly Permit.
All of this is probably why my Bank manager seems always pleased to see me.
Always have a look at what the 'opposition' have to offer.
My very pretty (to my eye) lawnmower come hairdryer, cruises at 80kts, fuel burn (mogas) up to 15liters per hour, will take off and land on what seems like half a postage stamp, carries 45lb of luggage, stowed with ease, stores 90 liters of fuel - enough for 6 hours to empty, has a crosswind limit of 24kts, has no discernible stall and is stressed to +6 -4.
I've flown almost forty different types so have a little experience of what different a/c have to offer. That's why I fly Permit.
All of this is probably why my Bank manager seems always pleased to see me.
Always have a look at what the 'opposition' have to offer.
My very pretty (to my eye) lawnmower come hairdryer, cruises at 80kts, fuel burn (mogas) up to 15liters per hour, will take off and land on what seems like half a postage stamp, carries 45lb of luggage, stowed with ease, stores 90 liters of fuel - enough for 6 hours to empty, has a crosswind limit of 24kts, has no discernible stall and is stressed to +6 -4.
The current distinctions between aircraft regulatory categories are just that... In reality they are all aircraft, designed to do different things and with different priorities, often with good reason. The real issue is the ridiculous regulatory and tax framework for European/UK aircraft that creates paranoia, divides and thereby conquers. I think the energy spent bickering like teenagers over the merits of their favorite pop groups would be better spent confronting the real problem.