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People on beach killed during forced landing

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People on beach killed during forced landing

Old 29th Jul 2014, 02:17
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People on beach killed during forced landing

Father killed, daughter injured when plane lands on beach in Venice | HeraldTribune.com

Not the intended consequence of the forced landing on the beach I'm sure, but I do believe as hobbyists we should understand that those on the beach were unwilling participants and perhaps the pilot should have risked his own life ditching in the sea rather then killing those people on the beach.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 03:41
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great tragedy.

I always taught my students they had a moral responsibility to protect the innocents on the ground. some very famous people have sacrificed themselves to avoid hitting a school or other things full of innocents.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW what the engine problem or whatever problem caused the forced landing. IF HE WAS OUT OF GAS, well...'nuff said.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 06:49
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Hindsight is a meaningless thing. If the pilot knew and could see people on the beach then he should have put it down 100 meters out to sea but only he knows what he could see and how packed the beach was.
from the pictures it was a very narrow beach and his instincts would have been to land on terra firma.
Accidents happen with cars every day where innocent people are killed, being an aircraft hits the headlines! I am sure he wishes he could turn the clock back and put it in the sea as he now has to live with the fact that his landing killed the little girl.
very sad and tragic for the pilot too I am sure.

addendum
But then if he put it down and took out a swimmer or surfer or small floating craft he would wish he had put it on the beach? the only way on a popular beach is to put it down a good distance from the shore

pace

Last edited by Pace; 29th Jul 2014 at 07:18.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 08:54
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We will never know

It's all very well saying the pilot had a moral responsibility to avoid those on the beech but it is a very thin beach and highly probable that the area appeared clear when it was selected as a forced landing area.

No one would aim at a person on the ground or a populated area so it is highly likely the pilot aimed at a clear area and the victim simply walked into that area unaware that a silent aircraft was about be forced to land on it.

That's why it is called an accident, unfortunately lawyers have created a society that thinks accidents can't happen because without someone to take the blame there is no claim.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 09:42
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It does get a bit tiresome seeing lawyers blamed for any apparent incident of 'the law gone mad'. Isn't blaming lawyers also party of the blame culture?

To be clear, I accept there are lawyers of the ambulance chasing mentality. However, if we end up with decisions which appear to preclude 'accidents', those decisions are more likely isolated judgments of junior judges rather than established decisions adopted by the higher courts. Actually, I think a lot of the stuff is myth. The insurance companies also have a role to play (as regards their stance when it comes to settling litigation which never deserved to succeed purely on the basis of an economic evaluation of each claim in isolation). But, by far the biggest cause of all is aggrieved parties who want to find someone to blame and use the courts to do it and thus need to hire lawyers. Should the lawyers turn them away? Now, if a relative of a poor soul killed by an aircraft 'accident' wants to vent their feelings through litigation, I'd see it as one outcome of a natural outpouring of grief, maybe anger or bitterness - but no less natural.

At the end of the day, it does us no harm to critically self-examine the morals of such situations and there's room for more than view. If the law becomes a lens through which such analysis sometimes takes place, and even if it's a process undertaken by ambulance-chasers, I'm glad I live in a place where the process is mostly satisfactory and objective.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 10:06
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An interesting view on the role of the legal profession, in this case I see no reason for the family of the victim not to be fully compensated by the aircraft insurers and hopefully without the need to have a court case dragged out for years accumulating legal fees.

This opinion however will not detract from the general opinion that the legal profession is feeding the blame culture for its own financial reward, the construction of small aircraft in the USA almost stopped for twenty years because of the cost of product liability insurance. The numbers that Piper gave stated that for every twenty claims the company paid up one without going to court, lost another one in court and won the rest........... The problem being the cost in legal fees for defending the eighteen cases that they won in court inflated the legal insurance bill to a point that was unsustainable. In other words insurance costs for paying lawyers for work that should never have been started in the first place.

The one place I do have some sympathy for the lawyers is when they are hired in cases were the it becomes clear that the real objective of the client is to exact some sort of revenge for an accident were a loved one has been injured or killed, the lawyer may have taken the case in good faith to seek financial compensation but is directed by the client in such a way that it becomes clear that the real motivation of the client is not the compensation, in this situation the lawyer has a duty to the client that they may well be less than comfortable with but unable to get out out of representing.

Last edited by A and C; 29th Jul 2014 at 10:22.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 10:16
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That is really tragic, and unfortunately just a dreadful accident. They happen every second all over the globe. People being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We should spare a thought for the pilot and his passenger. That will be very hard to come to terms with.

A good few years ago,a nine year old kid ran out at a traffic light in front of my car. I did everything I could to avoid her, but the last view I had was of her disappearing under the bonnet. Still haunts me to this day.

Anyway, another driver told police it was my fault, but thankfully other witnesses, including the kids mother, stated I had done everything to avoid her.

In this accident, the pilot will live with this forever....
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 10:54
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I don't know the full circumstances surrounding how this incident ended with the tragic collision with the Father and his Daughter, I fly in and out of Venice on a regular basis and I've always considered the beach a good place to put down in the case of an engine out situation, the main beach area around central Venice is a busy place but to the south of the City the beaches are usually very quiet.
Maybe the pilot saw these unfortunate souls on the beach and considered his aircraft would put down well clear of them, maybe as he was on short final with the sun in his eyes and had no sight of them ?.

The Gulf around the area has a great deal of small boat traffic maybe he thought it unsafe to go for a water landing for fear of a collision ?
With his engine out situation he would have have been on maximum workload and minimum time to try and get a good outcome to the situation, sadly that didn't happen....

All pure conjecture at the moment of course, But one things for sure I'll be a lot more alert in future when arriving or departing Venice or any other coastal airport.

As many have said here and elsewhere,as pilots if we are going to be having an accident we have to do everything we can to make sure it's our accident and no one else's !

Edit: Sadly it has just been reported that the little girl has died from her injuries.

Last edited by alland2012; 29th Jul 2014 at 15:34. Reason: Update
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 18:06
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Forced landing on Florida beach kills two on gound

This sad event has been getting significant press in the U.S. Local pilot loses power and decides to land on crowded beach rather than ditching in the ocean. Kills little girl and her father who were walking along the beach. Pilot and his passenger are unscathed. Lots of discussion as to whether the pilot should have been more willing to sacrifice some of his safety by ditching in the water rather than that of beachwalkers. Comments to the articles range from suggesting that pilot was blameless to suggesting that this is a case of manslaughter. Am interested in others' reactions to this.

See:
Georgia girl struck by plane on Florida beach dies

9-year-old girl dies after being hit by a plane on a Florida beach - LA Times

Ommy Irizarry killed by plane making emergency landing on Florida beach | Mail Online

Girl dies after being hit by plane on Florida beach - chicagotribune.com

Last edited by SeenItAll; 29th Jul 2014 at 18:34. Reason: Thread already exists
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 18:35
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What an arrogant display selfishness, and complete lack of airmanship and situational awareness. (save the plane)

You sir, should as a minimum, should go on trial for man slaughter.

And don't toss out the "E" word as an excuse for killing two people.

Couldn't ditch 10 feet from the beach? No, had to land on the beach and kill 2 people….pathetic!

You screwed the pooch on this one, you need to do the public a favor and surrender your license.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 19:37
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Is it any easier to see a swimmer in the water from an aircraft on approach than it is from a boat? (Which is pretty near impossible. Sometimes quite worrying taking a boat up to a beach, particularly if it's a lee shore with no great scope for slowing down or stopping.)

If I saw nobody on the beach I would think there was nobody on the beach. If I saw nobody in the water I wouldn't think that I knew there was nobody in the water.

If I saw nobody on the beach and nobody in the water I would, therefore, think my chances of damaging third parties would be lower if I went for the beach.
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Old 29th Jul 2014, 20:01
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tc1961

Couldn't ditch 10 feet from the beach? No, had to land on the beach and kill 2 people….pathetic!
I realise you are not someone who thinks it's sensible to wait for more facts to emerge before jumping to conclusions but, for the information of others here, at least one witness says the aircraft landed in the water and rolled onto the beach.

From the Tampa Tribune: Tape of various emergency calls
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 09:50
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I am sure the pilot is gutted. Hindsight ??? I am sure he sits there wishing he could turn the clock back and make a different decision but thats the one he made and now has to live with.
There are obvious hazards landing on populated areas. The pilot in a forced landing has control and with hindsight would have been better landing 100 to 200 meters off the shore where bathers are unlikely to be and faced the swim to the shore.
We discussed the Cirrus and the chuted landing where there is no control and I fear one day we will be discussing a similar tradegy under a chute

Pace
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 13:12
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At the end of the day if you are the pilot you are responsible. If you fly your aircraft into people on the ground then it is no different to coasting your car to a halt on a pavement full of people.

If the people are hidden from view by holes or obstructions, or rushed out in front of you whilst in ground effect then it starts to look more like an 'accident', something the pilot could not reasonably see or foresee. But unless there are some really unusual circumstances it seems hard to justify this forced landing.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 13:31
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I fell the exact opposite to Pace. Had the pilot had the option of a chute would the outcome have been positive? I don't know. A silent aircraft gliding with a reasonable horizontal velocity, or a parachuting aircraft with a much lower horizontal velocity and more time for the people to get out of the way. The reality is, the figures i have seen elsewhere clearly show the parachute a safer option for everyone concerned, including those on the ground. Forced landings and loss of control have killed many on the ground, parachuting aircraft - I am not aware of any, but I am sure somebody will find some.
I do feel we might be hijacking the thread. None of us were there and the options and decisions made by the bloke on the spot is hard to assess from the safety of our armchairs. It is a tragedy for the family on the ground, lets try to learn the correct lessons.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 19:44
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What an arrogant display selfishness, and complete lack of airmanship and situational awareness. (save the plane)

You sir, should as a minimum, should go on trial for man slaughter.

And don't toss out the "E" word as an excuse for killing two people.

Couldn't ditch 10 feet from the beach? No, had to land on the beach and kill 2 people….pathetic!

You screwed the pooch on this one, you need to do the public a favor and surrender your license.
And that "Sir" has to be one of the most pathetic and unthinking posts I have ever read on this forum! Troll perhaps?

SS
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 19:53
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SS agreed.

This clowns post still lies on the Jet Blast thread, about this sad accident.

I actually think the Mods were deleting it, but something has gone wrong.

Mods?????
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 20:31
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Very sad outcome, not sure if any stats available but I suspect very rare for people to be killed on the ground from GA accidents.

I do feel for the Pilot as well, in the split seconds he made his decisions and it went horribly wrong.
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Old 30th Jul 2014, 23:37
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It's very sad, but not particularly rare - quite a lot of recent cases over the past year or two such as the helicopter on a Glasgow pub, helicopter in central London, another case on a beach in the states. Several light aircraft that have hit houses.
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Old 31st Jul 2014, 12:14
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SS;


Agreed, I wonder if the one man lynch mob has ever landed a PA28 with it's not particularly good view out, if he's ever felt the heart stopping moment when the aeroplane goes quiet, or if he's only ever flown FS and therefore is vastly superior to anyone who has an accident.


SND
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